How close do you hunt your PLs? The intent of this post is to start a discussion of the issue that not all hunting conditions are all that favorable to pointing...like zero wind...standing corn etc. In other words, on one hand...letting a dog "run big" will...in my experience...result in lots of birds flushing out of gun range which becomes less and less acceptable when the area hunted is not holding hundreds of birds where the law of averages will result in numerous pointing opportunities. For those who prefer to hunt their dogs fairly close, how do you go about conditioning the dog to stay close? Finally, while I hate to split the thread by referring to another one...there is an issue of calling the dog IN...even if it is "on scent"...especially in standing corn wherein, if you don't keep the dog close...all you're going to see is birds flushing up 100 yards down range in standing corn...at least in my experience. THANKS! Jim

It all depends what type of cover i am hunting and the time of year,  Wheat, i let Jake run, cut corn the same, high switchgrass alittle closer, you can loose the dog easy, any other cover that he can be seen i trust him and follow him were ever he goes, same with Star and Satin, but with the younger ones i keep them closer, I try not to do a sit whistle if they are on a bird, alot of times i let them make some mistakes *especially the young ones* and hopefully they learn from them,,,,,

THANKS for the comments. But assuming you want to keep the dog closer...how do you go about doing so? At the present, when Cody gets out of gun range which he does 100% of the time except in VERY high cover...I just call him back in. But doing so is sort of a pain in the neck for both of us...i.e. a call in every 45 seconds or so. I'm all for following the dog wherever he goes just as you suggest...but Cody runs a LOT faster than I can so that isn't really practical! (-: Is there any better way to just train the dog to stay within gun range other than what I'm doing...by attrition...just calling him back in over and over? THANKS! Jim

Jim,

First on the training. I started all my dogs from puppy stage on the "walk" to respond to verbal (hup, wait, here) commands and their whistle counter parts. I do a "toot, toot.......toot, toot" as my whistle version of a "hup" command. That means simply hunt where I am as opposed to an actual "come in" whistle where I expect the dog to come all the way to me. Then when I double the whistle blasts, it means hunt closer. Again, I start all these when on the walk with body english, whistle and verbal then transition to upland work. Even when doing pen bird work I try very had not to just drop a couple birds on a postage stamp field, but use it as an oppotunity to hunt with the dog. Once they understand these whistle cues and blow you off, you can enforce them with a low collar nick on a sandwiched command if needed (here,nick,here or toot toot...nick..toot toot).

Dont get me wrong I love to let me dogs "roll" but as you have mentiuoned there are many times when you cant do that and they need to wok with you. These basic commands and expectations, started at a young age work very well. There are a lot of ways people use this. I like to control the younger dogs very little. If you hammer all over them wth this stuff you can take some of the run and bird confidence out of them. I have seen too many instances of dogs more concerned about where they are in relation to their handler or not  making mistakes as priorities over bird finding.

That said, I have hunted in IL, IA, and SD over the past couple of weeks and have had nummerous hens hold for point but only a couple of roosters. I agree totally with what Kevin said. When the conditions are right I love to let them roll but the conditions have to be right. My dogs differ. Both will work heavy cover in a gun range loop out and then check back in. I "trained" this by setting the early foundation then uising the wistle command in the field and once the dog understands what you want they do it on their own. My issue comes in when my dogs get into open cover and they want to range big.  I like that expectation from them but sometimes (like the past few weekends) I have to reel them in with the whistle. That works for me.

Bird numbers are down, you have to make your encounters count, the birds out there are 2 year olds and have some experience, early season weather does not promote holding for point. It is not just a PL thing. I saw a number of nice pointing breed dogs opening weekend in IL have a number of unproductive points, hen points, and not produce a solid pointed rooster over the whole weekend - that is unusual. They all worked birds and they put birds up but not a solid held point on a rooster.  In Iowa, Cruz and I were walking a linear cover strip next to a field and we had earliler pushed birds that way. He pointed/relocated all the way down - obviously birds were running the strip. In other conditions I would have let him go big and work back to me but I pulled him off the scent and made him wait in gun range for me. We ended up forcing the birds into a little curve in the cover and I shot three roosters wtihin about 30 yards.

I love watching them hunt big but you have to hunt the conditions. Once the dogs are given a consistent expectation on how you want to hunt types of cover, the good ones will hunt that way on their own (I almost never hunt Cruz with an e-collar on, didnt with Cody either). Yes, sometimes this means pulling them off scent, even hitting a sit whistle if need be if they are hot on a runner and you think its better to force the bird into a place it will flush.

Young dogs - i.e. first season: Forget about bagging birds and let them hunt. Dont keep calling them off scent. Let them work it out. It is more valuable a lesson to let the young dog hunt and find birds than to kill roosters.

Another way is to use influence in handling your dog, non verbal and very effective. I start with them as pups on our puppy walks and control how far out they get and their speed with influence. If they are getting out a little far, I turn 90 degrees and they will then adjust to hunt in front of me again. So by using influence, adjusting the speed which I walk, or time I stand still, direction I move I can control the range of my dogs. It works well for me. I see many folks hurry up to keep up with their dogs in the field and what they actually do is drive their dogs deeper.....
Pat

I'll take that Cody off your hands, sounds like an outlaw to me.....? ; )

I always let my PLs hunt at the range they chose. In open sparesly covered country that ranged out to about 400 yards from me - still in visual contact most of the time. In tighter country the brown one ranged generally just outside visual contact,tcoming into sight as he quartered the country in front of me. The black one (actually probably the better dog overall) was problematic in tight country. He didn't adjust his range to suit those conditions well and went literally wild if he got into a covey of large birds - LOTS of scent. Sigh!

If a dog is flushing lots of birds out of range and is supposedly a POINTING Lab., his manners on birds need some work - IMO.

Really thick stuff does pose certain problems for the hunter/pointing dog team. Maintaining contact or location of the dog on point are especially problematic. Bell on dog collar worked for decades or more. The new GPS tracking collars are the cat's meow!

Jere

GREAT comments. THANKS!


Bsmiley, I really appreciated your comments. Your experience most closely matches mine. In the "legendary" pheasant locales where seeing hundreds of birds in a morning hunt is typical...fine...let Fido run his brains out. The law of averages will likely result in enough rooster points to limit out.


But as you point out, such abundant numbers aren't available to most of us and the thought of busting roosters a hundreds yards out all morning doesn't appeal to me and might result in getting a "Chaney" from a hunting partner!

I also use a double toot as a signal to change directions...generally together with an "arm cast" and Cody is really responsive to that. But left to his own devices, in everything but very tall cover, he will range out AT LEAST 100 yards.


I WILL take to heart your advice to pretty much let him have his head in this...his first hunting season.

THANKS!

Best,
Jim

I ran Cody twice today and followed the advice to not PUSH him. Instead, whenever he got too far out I either stopped or turned in the opposite or 90 degree direction. We were in cover where he was mostly but not always in view and it worked like a charm! After a brief interval of either being too far and/or out of sight, he came back in to be BIG TIME...without any verbal or whistle commands.


One day isn't going to alter his behavior all that much but I plan to adopt that technique full time and only use a collar correction if it comes to pass that he gets used to not hanging around. I can't have him running off into the next county! But so far, so good.


And on my next hunt...hopefully Wednesday....I'm just going to let him range out hoping that he will go on point and wait for me or bust them up and suffer the self-induced "punishment" of not getting any bird in his jaw.


Best,
Jim

It is remarkably rewarding to allow your relationship with the dog to develop this " influence handling" way. I don't like Mike Gould's term "Influence Handling" much. It implies CONTROL but I don't think that is what is going on at all. I believe what we're seeing is COOPERATION of the dog with the man.

You need to be aware of a point or two though - In this partnership, just as the dog has a duty to "keep track of you and your movements," you have the duty to be aware of where he is likely to be - should he point when out of sight, for instance. Over time you will likely develop an almost eerie 'sixth sense' about how long the dog is likely to be out of sight and shou be ready to change course and look him up when he's "gone too long." You'll likely find him pointing somewhere and waiting for you.

From time to time you'll change course and dog may not notice as quickly as would be best. You can wait but I generally would signal to the dog that I'd changed course with a verbal "HO Tuck or Storm" or a whistle noise I make with my mouth just to get their attention and let them see I was not going their way any longer. This approach seems to foster cooperation which is something that can not be "trained" per se. I suspect it has an analog in the way group hunting critters communicate in the wild. The response "conditions" remarkably rapidly with dogs of suitable temperament - not too independent.

Jere

Jere,
I agree with the cooperation aspects as well and also would like to add that you need to understand your dogs movements and be able to see when a dog is working scent and react accordingly. Trust your dog and when it is acting birdy, or working scent follow it.....
I use mostly non verbal queues, but will give a short mouth whistle toot to get the dogs attention if needed.
Happy hunting.
Pat

Jim, that is great to hear you two are getting on the same page without conflict. Good points from Randy and Jere, trust him, watch him, and the connection between you two can be something that some will understand, some wont.

One day isn't going to alter his behavior all that much

One day may get you a tremendous advance in his understanding your expectations. I am still amazed at what dogs can learn in each experience on wild birds. I have seen some major revelations happen in young dogs in a single day afield. It is very cool to watch.

Good way to put it Jere, "I believe what we're seeing is COOPERATION of the dog with the man." I like that, and from experience with my dogs have had that 6th sense you are talking about. Still working on that 4th and 5th like you Jim thats for sure! Lol like Bruce said good to see you two communicating. Jere, you must have spent a good amount of time with your dogs in the field.? I believe thats what it takes to build that sense. Days upon days in the field or blind.

Jim, as I said earlier, the gps tracking collars are the "cat's meow" while you're waiting for the sixth sense to develop. But note, the sixth sense I mentioned only applies to how long the dog "should" be out of sight before showing itself again. This seems to be a characteristic of each dog. If the cover is too thick to have any idea where the dog is much of the time, or even only at those critical periods when the dog is deep in cover and probably pointing, I really suggest figuring out a way to let the dog hunt and still know where it is. My last year with Storm (the black dog in my avatar picture which was taken off the Denali Highway in Alaska that year) hunting the willow thickets in Interior Alaska, when I realized we might not be traveling south again (below) and would be hunting that stuff for the rest of time, finally convinced me to bite the bullet and buy a Garmin Astro. I find "gadgets" somewhat of a PIA but that one is worth it though I never got to put it on him.

younggunz, We spent some time afield almost every day of their lives. It was not all real hunting but except for days spent driving from place to place we hunted most days of about 4 - 6 weeks per year in Alaska (9 or 10 years) and then 3 - 5 months in "Lower America" (SD, ID, OR NV, NM, AZ - not all in every year) for seven or eight winters. Virtually all this was upland hunting. When we traveled and settled in to hunt somewhere we hunted each dog on alternate days and went to town for steak and shower one day a week - this was usually on Sunday to avoid the "weekend warriors." Generally we hunted about 3 hours a day - that's about what I could do on a sustained basis - but occassionally four or five hours.

Jere

Garmin, oooo I want one. I hunt a few times a year with a guy that has GSP's that are horseback trial dogs. The Garmin is a flat out necessity for him as his FC trial dog is generally not within sight and generally runnning 200-400 yards. I cant hear a bell at distance and those beeper collars annoy me. I am trying to justify the expense since I love to let the dogs range but I probably have less than a week total of hunting each year where the circumstances of my hunt and conditions allow for that. They are aligned with Tri-tronics now so there will likely be an e-collar/GPS tracking collar out from them in the next year.

Jere, that is not a bad way to live. I read this now at work and unable to get a week off strait to go hunt so I am scrounging long weekends and long drives to hunt 3 days at a time this fall.

Thanks for all the comments. But since Cody is my first pointing dog, I am fully prepared to get my chops busted by you much more pointer-experienced folks.

But you all may hunt birds that have better manners than the ones I hunt.


The ones I hunt have VERY acute hearing and after a few days of getting pressed by hunters, they get REALLY spooky. So, you're in chest high brushy weeds as I was yesterday. Cody disappears from my sight and hearing in about 30-40 yards. He's AWOL for about a minute and UP flushes a rooster and a hen.

I have NO CLUE where he is or whether he pointed or bumped the birds up or...more likely...on a nearly windless day, they may have just heard him crashing through the weeds from dozens of yards away and the birds just got the hell out of Dodge.


I was just advised by a hunting guide with a string of traditional pointing breeds that have THOUSANDS of points to their credit that he always hunts his dogs within gun range....UNLESS he's in one of the pheasant Meccas (like some areas of SD for example) where hunters see a hundred birds in a few hours of hunting and...odds are...the dog will point on one of the few whose genes tell him to hunker down instead of run or fly when they feel threatened.


But in other parts of the country (most parts) where you can hunt for an hour without getting on game...the thought of having the birds flushed up 200 yards down range isn't a pleasant one.


But I AM going to sort of compromise with some of the advice given here and let him range out to his "default" range with seems to be about 50-75 yards and see what happens.


I UNDERSTAND the theory that if the dog busts the birds up he engages in "self-punishment" by not getting a retrieve. But as noted, in a HIGH percentage of cases, the dog is NOT going to be visible due to high cover and I will have no way to know if he bumped them up...his fault...or if they just heard him many yards...if not dozens of yards away and spooked up without being bumped.....not his fault.


NOTE: I often hunt alone. I can imagine that the above issue/problem would be made less so if there were several hunters in the field and what flushes out of gun range for me, may be in range for a fellow hunter.


Anyway, we'll see how it goes for the rest of this season and if it turns out that he disappears and I can head in his last known direction (or get a Garmin) and get within gun range before the flush...then cool beans!


Best,
Jim

Jim, my perspective is that conditions are conditions. Normally, early season, I would be able to shoot a couple of limits a day off solidly pointed birds over my dogs. This year we had different conditions and the first weekend none of our dogs produced a solid walk up pointed rooster. They worked a lot of birds and produced a lot of birds, had a lot of unproductive points - all unusual for the crew of dogs working. Now it is possible that these ES's, and GSP's (including an FC that just came off a trial two days earlier), and my PL's just aren't very good pointing dogs and need a lesson in bird manners. Or it could be conditions.

I hunted with some of the same dogs last year in December in SD and we went three days limiting out on only pointed birds (or roosters that flushed from the same area when the dog kept steady to wing on a pointed hen). It is really a judgment call when to let them roll and when to pull them in. Sometimes I get so caught up in my control of the situation that I dont let the dog run when I should but I know that there are times this is the best formula for killing birds. Good dogs can do both and adapt to the conditions with a little direction from the handler. I have no use for a dog that wont hunt anywhere but around my feet and I have no use for a dog that wont pull in when needed. I enjoy hunting different types of cover and conditions - that is part of the fun for me since I have to drive a day to get somewhere either way.

I have not hunted standing corn in several years as that is not my thing - I like grass. Some of the ground I have access to is big switchgrass, same visibility as standing corn. Birds can run like crazy in there and I have some great stories of dogs "working" runners back to the gun. Maybe I will try the Garmin at some point and let them go more but at this point they just run a gun-range loop in front of me and check when they loop back. They pretty much naturally did this with a little whistle enforcement. Now if I dont get a check-back, I need to go find where the grass stopped moving last because there is likely a dog with a bird pinned.

I cant wait to get out to some large rolling grass tracts in December and really cut them loose.

When we are in really tall, thick grass I put a bell on my dog. I like it lots better than a beeper collar, and I still have pretty good hearing. If I can't hear him, or see the grass moving as he works, and he doesn't come to a whistle-he's on point. True, you have to hunt around a little for the dog-but you can use the tone on your collar if you have one if you get desperate-and if it doesn't already mean something else to your dog. In cover like that I try to have him check in a little more often so I know about where he is at all the time-but sometimes I am surprised how fast they can cover ground following a running bird in that stuff.

Is the dog going to point more birds within gun range, or are you planning to shoot the bumped birds? If so, how's the dog supposed to learn the pointing game? (serious question, everyone says not to shoot flushed birds for my young dog)