Posted By gum on 12 Nov 2011 05:33 PM
Well Jere I would love to see your dogs handle and did you train them your self

I'd be more than overjoyed to be able to show them to you, but they both died last year of cancers. Yes, I did train them myself.

Maybe I'll have another to show you next time I'm in SD.

Jere

Sounds good sorry for your loss

Possibly there is a confusion of terms in this thread. I've never written any book but to me Force Fetch means the process by which a dog is conditioned to PICK UP an object/bird upon being commanded to do so....period. (Eventually, we hope that the process of fetching on command becomes a conditioned response and the command would thereafter rarely be needed).

In the context of that definition, FF has nothing to do with "handling" which I would define as commanding a dog to proceed in the direction and ONLY the direction commanded by the handler. In fact, the whole concept of the T and Double T includes the FACT that a "fetch" out not to be expected by the dog after each and every cast...only SOME of the casts.

Extending that thought, if Force FETCH was a HANDLING technique then we would drive our dogs crazy if...to them...every CAST was supposed to result in a FETCH but the handler repeatedly required the dog NOT to fetch.

Just for clarity, I think that HANDLING is a process LIMITED IN INTENT to having the dog track a commanded directional line...and in doing so, a FETCH MAY OR MAY NOT be the end result.

There are other forms of "force" training that DO relate to handling...like Force to Pile and Force on Back but again, in my view Force FETCHING is an entirely different process undertaken for an entirely different purpose.

I'm just sayin'

regards,
Jim

WOW thanks for waking me up. But ff is the base for force to pile t and handling please some one show me how to get reliable handling without ff. When I start cold blinds there is always a fetch at the end its called trust, why quit with just the pick up.

Force fetch is much more than that, Jim - at least in the Carr/Lardy et al structured force based retriever training program. This program starts with the use of heeling stick and chokecollar as aversives and really gets into gear with Force Fetch with ear pinch. It is in FF the dog learns not only to avoid the unpleasantness of some aversive (lead/cc, heeling stick, or the ear-pinch in ff) but to escape it or "turn of the pressure;" in the language common in this field; by prompt, correct compliance to commands. Ultimately the dog will 'understand' the way to avoid/escape a wide variety of aversive situations (maybe ANY aversive situation) is to correctly and promptly respond to any known command.

In the program, gum; all this "force" is superimposed on a basic repertoire of stuff we want the dog to do on command: sit (and stay quietly until released), come when called, take casts, heel, hold something in its mouth until commanded to spit it out, and on and on. Surely you can think of ways to train a dog to do these things without ff, maybe even solely by using the dog's inherent naturally motivated "drives" as rewards and preventing achievement of these as "punishments?"

Jere

Did I SAY JUST EAR PINCH I think i said ff whole program . Show me how, your talking a good story but show me more than one that handles into the wind at 200 yard without ff.

Gum, You seem pretty passionate about this.
If you train as sharply as you communicate here, I feel for your dog/s.....
It is apparant that there is only one way to train in your book.
The mere fact that not many have bitten on your post should say something.
There are many folks on here that train with open minds and look for the right ballance of force in their training.
It doesn't make their way wrong.... I would reccomend you attend an APLA test where you can see quality dogs in action performing to a high level with many different training programs.
Best of luck with your training.
Pat

I got 2 master hunters 1 qaa dog and 2 with a 3rd in qaa and other places in the q and derby so I seen quality dogs in action. Thats why I want someone to tell me how to get a dog to handle with out ff you all say it can be done but you won't tell me how.

Posted By gum on 15 Nov 2011 11:32 AM
1. Did I SAY JUST EAR PINCH I think i said ff whole program . 2. Show me how, your talking a good story but show me more than one that handles into the wind at 200 yard without ff.

1. You have consistently maintained ff is essential and pretty much implied or even stated it is all that is necessary - read your posts again. That observation aside, you now want to insist the whole Carr/Lardy et al force program or some similar program is necessary?? Sufficient perhaps, but not necessary.

2. I'm not about to try and write a book for you here!! And I'm not gonna be around long enough or otherwise have the opportunity to show you "more than one [dog?] that handles into the wind at 200 yard without ff." I could name an AFC that would but can't show him as he wasn't mine and he's dead as is my 'Storm" who would too.

Anyway, I'd be unlikely to travel all the way to SD w/o having the rules spelled out clearly in advance - I'd expect you to raise the bar when I got there, perhaps demand handling across a raging ice filled river into a gale force wind on the other side of the Earth. You keep adding criteria as you go along. Get your thinking straightened out if you want to continue discussions with me. Otherwise, I'm done with you. I've wasted enough time on this already.

Have a great day and enjoy yourself and your dogs.

Jere

Jere, still havn't told me how!

gum, I've told enough in this and the other thread that a sufficiently motivated, reasonably intelligent person; with a modicum of retriever specific dog training knowledge and an interest in learning more; who is willing to work at the endeavor and is capable of independent thought; should be able to proceed down that path on his/her own.

Considering all that's transpired since you appeared here, the fact you have no right to demand anything of me, I'm under no obligation to help you and haven't been ff'd myself; I'm not about to try and spoon feed you.

Jere

Wow, what a learning curve I have to look forward to. Glad I am starting with Julie's book.

Jere, not intending to be at all argumentative but again...I think we have a definition issue.
I do have the Lardy DVD and yes...FF can and is described as a multi-faceted PROCESS. But my point is that within that process there is a specific command...."fetch"....which has a single purpose...to have the dog pick up and hold the object he is commanded to pick up and hold.

As I wrote to gum...the singular act of picking up and holding an object on command has nothing DIRECTLY to do with "handling"...at least in my definition of that term which is "the ability to send a dog on a specified line."

As I noted, that line MAY OR MAY NOT send the dog to an object it is supposed to find and retrieve. And therefore, "handling" and "fetch" (whether taught with force or not)are two different things which are related only in the sense that almost everything we teach dogs is "related" to the goal of producing a well-taught hunting dog.

So...gum...you asked how a dog can be trained to handle without FF. My response is that if one wanted to just make a point, one could HANDLE a dog to every point on a double T and have it return to the handler without EVER picking up a single object.

Further, I don't THINK that Lardy would object to the proposition that "Force to Pile" IS NOT A FORCE FETCH command!

Lardy describes the FTP process as intended to build COMPULSION TO RETRIEVE...not a compulsion to pick anything up...necessarily...as is clearly exhibited when the dog is intentionally STOPPED on the way to the pile...and back from it for that matter.

It would be exceptionally counter-productive to give a dog the FETCH command...and then order it NOT to complete the fetch. Conversely, as noted above...stopping the dog on the way to the pile...is part and parcel of the FTP process so FETCH is NOT necessarily the objective of FTP whereas picking up and holding an object IS NECESSARILY the objective of the FETCH command (whether taught by force or not).
Finally,
Jere....just to be clear...I am just lobbying for precise definitions of terms so we can debate apples and apples not apples and oranges.

and gum....given the above definitions (which I assert are correct) FETCHING has nothing directly to do with HANDLING.
Regards, Jim

PS: Can someone explain to me how to get paragraph breaks to happen...consistently? My process of using several "space downs" between paragraphs works sometimes and not others.

SORRY!
Thanks to Richard, I got it figured out.
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