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 Thursday, May 17, 2012
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Pointing Lab Forums
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When to Force Fetch??
Last Post 04 Jan 2012 12:43 PM by . 33 Replies. |
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RLZachman
New Member
Posts:33
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| 10 Oct 2011 11:56 AM |
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I was recently discussing PL training with a very, very experienced pro PL trainer that has been training PLs for many many years, exclusively for hunters and not so much for hunt testers and he shared a view on force fetching that I had not heard before, but, it does make sense to me and I thought others may benefit from his words of wisdom on this topic.
I am sure there will be many that disagree with this notion, which is totally fine, but, if this concept does have merit, it may help people to improve the upland hunting skills of their PLs and I thought I should share it.
His view was that PLs are different than typical flushing retrievers, because, for typical retriever, the cumpulsion to rapidly pick up the bumper or bird that comes from FF'ing goes along just fine with the desire to flush a bird in the upland field, however, that same cumplusion is contratictory to naturally working an upland field and finding the object of their desire (the bird) and then, turning off that trained desire to "get it" and instead, letting nature kick in and stop and point the bird.
My understanding of what he was saying is that FF'ing is "get it now... get it now... get it now" and natural pointing is "find it, but don't get it.... find it, but dont get it.... find it, but don't get it."
To be clear, this trainer was not saying that we should avoid FF'ing PLs, he was just pointing out that he believed the timing of it was critical and it should only be done after a dog has become solid in the upland field.. at finding, naturally pointing and holding point on birds. He says, once the dog in confident in the upland field, then FF'ing later is easier for the dog to understand vs FF'ing early which can have an impact on the dogs natural point in the upland field. He says the impact can be the dog becomes unsure of what is really expected (do I "get it" or "find it, but dont get it"), which can lead to, in his opinion, a lack up confidence to work the field with any abandon, as well as, crowding and or bumping birds vs pointing scent at a distance.
I can't say that I know when most pros FF, but, he implied that most pros treat PLs like normal flushing retrievers do it too early. If this is really the case, it could be because many clients of pros are interested in running hunt tests and that may influence the the desire to FF early, so that a dog can enter hunt tests sooner.
I am sure there will be folks that can say, we FF'd my PL early and he/she is a great upland hunter, which I am sure is the case for many, however, on more than one occassion I have seen PLs hunting very close to their handlers in hunt tests and crowding/bumping birds and I have also, on more than one occasion, heard people (even a judge or two) say, "I am not even sure that master dog is really pointing... it looks like he/she is really just stopping" and, after hearing this view on FF'ing from this pro, I am wondering if early FF'ing (or just too much pressure, in gerneral) could be behind, some of that "not so desireable" upland work.
In my own personal experience with Bear, out of total ignorance about even what FF'ing was, I never force-fetched him at all. Considering this advice from the pro and looking back on what I did with Bear, that is interesting to me because, I have never had any issues with Bear in the upland at all (other than pointing a bird from too far away the judges could not find), however, I have had some technical issues with him on blinds. I guess this could speak to the very challenging balancing act that a PL must be capable of handling... trained behavor (ie blinds) that often req's things like FF'ing and pressure vs the natural behavior (staunch pointing of scent at a distance) in the upland field.
To each his own, but, to me, this whole PL thing started because I love to pheasant hunt, so, if I am going to err on one side or the other, I would prefer imperfect blinds to inadequate upland work, so, while I may (or may not) FF my future dogs, I will, at least, pay attention to this advice from this pro and try to do it only after my dog is doing what I want in the upland field.
Just a thought-starter that, I hope, may be useful, particulary for any amateurs that may be just embarking on a new journey with a pointing lab!
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| 4XGMPR HRCH CLOUDS BOLD BEAR OF NEREUS SH
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DocFritz
Advanced Member
Posts:622
SW Iowa
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| 11 Oct 2011 11:29 AM |
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May have some merit, but it all depends on what the end game goal is. Beamer was never really force fetched, we have had issues on how is really in charge sometimes which goes back to poor foundation early on. Most would include FF as "foundation" it is not about fetch, it is about dealing with pressure as the bigger goal to FF.
I wanted LAcy to have a very solid foundation and she went to be FFed at just under six months as soon as teething was complete. when she came back she did not point for a couple weeks, she was very solid as a young pup 4-5 months old. This was very temporary though as soon as she figured out the difference in commands and situations she was right back to pointing well. ( I have learned to be careful and never use "find it" the trailing command or similar phrases in the upland to keep things seperate, "hunt em up, or wahere are they" )She is much farther along as a "total package" (retrieving and pointing) then beamer was at a similar age, though his upland was probably better, again though Lacy was at trainer with no upland work twice for two months each. bUt she will be a very servicable duck dog this fall, and will do fine in the upland. that being the case ht games would take care of themselves for the most part. the same could not be said for beamer at 16 months, he was fine in the upland on birds that sat but lacked the discipline to be steady in a boat, and would run wild at times in the upland field on birds that ran. So with my goal as a servicable hunting dog at 16 months (this fall)I felt FFing early was the way to go.
Maybe some merit to the view point, may make it difficult for dogs with marginal point but I think you gotta give good dogs the credit that they will figure out the differences in the situations given time and bird exposure. |
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Fritz Baier D.C.
GMHR-II WR SR MPR APR CPR Baier's Mighty Waldimar
MHR WR HR SR CPR Baier's Lady Gabrielle
WR CPR Baier's Lady Legacy of TruPoint |
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DocFritz
Advanced Member
Posts:622
SW Iowa
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| 11 Oct 2011 11:29 AM |
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May have some merit, but it all depends on what the end game goal is. Beamer was never really force fetched, we have had issues on how is really in charge sometimes which goes back to poor foundation early on. Most would include FF as "foundation" it is not about fetch, it is about dealing with pressure as the bigger goal to FF.
I wanted LAcy to have a very solid foundation and she went to be FFed at just under six months as soon as teething was complete. when she came back she did not point for a couple weeks, she was very solid as a young pup 4-5 months old. This was very temporary though as soon as she figured out the difference in commands and situations she was right back to pointing well. ( I have learned to be careful and never use "find it" the trailing command or similar phrases in the upland to keep things seperate, "hunt em up, or wahere are they" )She is much farther along as a "total package" (retrieving and pointing) then beamer was at a similar age, though his upland was probably better, again though Lacy was at trainer with no upland work twice for two months each. bUt she will be a very servicable duck dog this fall, and will do fine in the upland. that being the case ht games would take care of themselves for the most part. the same could not be said for beamer at 16 months, he was fine in the upland on birds that sat but lacked the discipline to be steady in a boat, and would run wild at times in the upland field on birds that ran. So with my goal as a servicable hunting dog at 16 months (this fall)I felt FFing early was the way to go.
Maybe some merit to the view point, may make it difficult for dogs with marginal point but I think you gotta give good dogs the credit that they will figure out the differences in the situations given time and bird exposure. |
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Fritz Baier D.C.
GMHR-II WR SR MPR APR CPR Baier's Mighty Waldimar
MHR WR HR SR CPR Baier's Lady Gabrielle
WR CPR Baier's Lady Legacy of TruPoint |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 11 Oct 2011 06:12 PM |
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Ask Julie K -- NOBODY has trained more GMPRs than she has.
IMO, PLs should be FF just like any other Lab.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Maximillion
Basic Member
Posts:380
Kenly, North Carolina
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| 12 Oct 2011 02:30 AM |
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Might have some merit, but since I am not able to get Eli on the number of birds I want to, and I depart on a trip in 2 weeks, I have scheduled his FF training for 2 Jan 2012, so it will be 3 full months before he bets to see another bird in the upland field or the bird cage.
Max, has never really been FF, had a couple portions done but nothing formal and he is doing fine. |
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Richard McCullough
3.5XGMPR HRCH Lankas Labs Brandys Maximillion MH "Max"
CPR SHR Rick's Rooster Smasher of DRL JH "Eli"
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 31 Oct 2011 11:51 AM |
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I too agree that philosophy might have some merit but most...certainly not all...hunters go after ducks as well as upland game and retrievers don't point ducks so pointer-oriented training isn't applicable to that part of their lives.
In addition, in my experience there are generally not pointing OPPORTUNITIES on every bird in a typical upland hunting day. Maybe others have, but I've never seen a point in the middle of a corn field! In addition, we sometimes HAVE to hunt downwind...or hunt on windless days where even the best pointers will "run over" birds without having the opportunity to scent them (like if they have FLOWN to their current location rather than walking/running there) so there isn't any ground scent.
Finally, not all of us...actually a fairly small percentage....have ACCESS to tons and tons of birds to work their dogs on in the early stages of training. Those who do, have a huge advantage and may well benefit from bringing out the pointing behavior before FF'ing. But the rest of us who want to have highly obedient hunting dogs in the field and in the blind well before the age of 2 years...then FF'ing pretty much has to be engaged in well before the dog has pointed hundreds of times.
Regards,
Jim
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Julie
Basic Member
Posts:237
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| 03 Nov 2011 10:33 AM |
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Hmmm. Bob, I think you and I have had strange discussions on this topic before..... ANYONE who prescribes an age for a particular training aspect is pretty narrow sighted. Early or late. People who ground their training teeth on the pointers have a perspective often substantially different from those grinding their training teeth on retrievers. Both believe they are right. I believe comments on timing are similar to stating that children should not learn to read until ________ some magic age that was right for the kids that person knew. Some kids can learn to read at the age or 4 or even earlier, others not for years after that. No one argues points like this about humans, but for someone reason when it comes to dogs, people will fight for their own experiences and desires.
I've trained good pointing retrievers that were improved by a force fetch before a year of age, with lots of upland birds in that first year. I've had others that didn't get force fetched until their mental maturity (which was inadequate in both technical and field work) was developed enough to master challenging mental responses. There is a set of evolutionary steps any dog must go through to master the upland field, and no one but the dog and the ability of its trainer can define the timing of this process. But, there is a natural flow for the retriever brain, whether it flushes or points birds, that makes lots of sense to the dog. You don't have to have a poor response on handling to have a good upland dog, unless you don't like the training involved in the handling and wish to escape it (not unlike dogs being trained in technical and somehat unnatural things). There are an increasingly large number of awfully impressive pointing dogs that also have crisp, awesome responses on the formal stuff. As a matter of fact, the best are best in both categories, not just one.
I've never had force fetch mess up anything in the upland field, which is a statistically significant observation. I don't have a traumatic force fetch process either, I don't know if that's it or I'm just lucky. I have had it really improve things in the upland field however, which is also strange, don't you think? I don't force fetch with birds and I never allow the presence of birds in any form bring bad things to a training sesssion, a response I see occasionally on this forum to poor bird behavior. Like I've said a bunch of times before, give me a person who is tuned into their dog, aware of it's responses more than they are aware of their judgment of those responses, and they can train any way they like - and they'll be successful. |
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John Lindell
New Member
Posts:17
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| 04 Nov 2011 05:54 PM |
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I read this morning, and thought I would share some of my experiences, I'm assuming all the folks reading this have an interest in the pointing part of the pointing lab or they wouldn't be on this forum. If you do not then there's no need to read further. For those that do here go's
Bob has did an excellent job of putting to words our conversation. But I'm going to expand on it just a little bit. What were talking about here is not a time or an age what were talking about is the sequence of training to get the most possible out of your pup. Your student could be six months old or six years old but the sequence of training does make a difference. We've all seen dogs and probably have trained them that have holes in their training because of our mistakes by moving too fast or skipping one aspect of the training program. We accept this, but when you challenge something that's traditional it becomes harder for us to accept though it's really the same thing. There's a lot more going on here than we think. If you're looking to get the best performance that your dog is capable of achieving it will be enhanced by establishing solid upland work before you force fetch. I have done both forced before and after for those that haven't I suggest they try and let the results form their opinion. It has mine
For those that don't think that they have seen force fetch affect their upland work I would ask that they take another look, could be you will be surprised on what you see.
With dogs there's nothing in training that's 100% and works with every dog there will always be exceptions that's just the way it is. In conclusion it really doesn't matter to me how anybody else goes about training their dog, like Bob said in his post it is a thought starter, I post this here for those that might be interested who knows maybe it will help someone some time. To my friend Julie there's nothing strange about what you have seen but why it happened may be surprising.
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RLZachman
New Member
Posts:33
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| 09 Nov 2011 09:03 PM |
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John and Julie..
Wow!! I am just honored to have two such "big guns" chime in on something little 'ol amateur me posted on this site!!
Thank You to both of you for elaborating with your wisdom for all interested PL owners to read.. at least, it gives all us amateurs something to think about when working with these great dogs!
John, I read back through my original post and noticed that I used the work "old" a few times. Sorry about that! What I really meant was "experienced"! Heck, your only a few years my senior, so, if you are "old", then so am I!
Also, for what it's worth (not much, at this point), I did not mean to imply that I thought you were saying there was an absolute point in time or age to FF, rather, my understanding was that it was more of a relative timing thing... i.e. be solid in upland before FF'ing to optimize the upland work, regardless of when that is. I can see how some dogs could achieve that state much sooner than others and be ready to move on to FF at a much earlier age.
I am one, like you said, that is definitely more entrigued with the upland and pointing side of things, so that may also be why I tend to natually align with this philosophy (Going and getting something and bringing it back, is just not nearly as exciting to me as watching a dog instinctively locate and pin down a rooster and let me know there is a bird nearby somewhere!!!) . Oh, I definitely appreciate that these PL's can retrieve (and I would rather not have to swim out in a pond to get a bird)... otherwise I would own an EP! 
Take Care,
Bob |
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| 4XGMPR HRCH CLOUDS BOLD BEAR OF NEREUS SH
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bsmiley
Veteran Member
Posts:1063
Fishers Indiana
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| 10 Nov 2011 05:50 AM |
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I dont have anywhere near the experience of John or Julie in expressing an opintion on how FF effects the dogs bird manners. I would tend to agree based on anecdotal experience that ff actually helps some of these aspects over the long haul.
I will say that I have seen a definite difference in the run and range of my dogs based on the order in which you do ff v/'s the early upland work. Cruz has a lot of run and is also a very bidable dog. I am not suggesting these ages for other people, this is when my dog happended to be ready. When he was 5 months old and I was doing formal OB, I found him starting to hang with me more and range less on our walks, even walking at heel which he would never do on a "walk". Swiderski suggested from the start that I do bird work before ff. I had done OB, ff, then Upland on my others. With seeing how the control stuff was effecting Cruz, I agreed, and after OB I sent him off to chase birds and be a wild thing for a month only having to comply with 1) go when your sent, and 2) point when you find it.
After that I ff'd him at 6-7 months old and out of this sequence he had a much better (bigger) run and upland confidence at a much younger age than Cody who had ff before upland. Cody ended up with that run but it took some time to come back and he was a very hard charging dog. A dog with less bird drive may have had more permanent effects form the high-control stuff early.
Again, just an observation but at this point I am a huge fan of letting them establish run and bird finding to the point of being wild, bird crazy machines before the control of ff. Two of mine when through this very young. Cruz was SWSF at 9 months old but was one of those dogs that just complied with expectations.
Interesting that I have this conversation with my pointer friends and they are appalled that someone would do ANY control work on a dog until it is a year old. |
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Cruz, 4XGMPR HRCH MH ("CAT 6")
Yeager, MPR HR (Master Pointing Lap Dog)
Cody, 2XGMPR, MH (BAMF,RIP Friend)
Runnin',Gunnin' & Pickin' Up the Chickens!
www.browngundogs.com
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RLZachman
New Member
Posts:33
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| 10 Nov 2011 08:29 AM |
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Thanks for that feedback Bruce! Seeing how Cruz works a field (in a way any hunter would be excited about) and hearing how you evolved his training sequence is quite helpful.
I know every dog is different, so we have to flexible in what we do, but, at least for us amateurs who have all the time in the world to work with our dogs, it does make sense to me to let the pup "find its instinctive self" in the upland field, then, apply the control aspects when appropriate vs the other way around.
My current pup, Ike, is definitely in that wild/crazy phase right now, big time!! He is more bird insane each time I put him in the field. He so wants to find that bird so bad now that it seems to have an obvious affect on his hearing... ie he goes deaf!! With Bear, I did not even own and e-collar until he was 3... with IKE, I just started collar conditioning him at 6 months and I can definitely see force fetching him soon. He is already solid at finding, pointing and holding point for a long time. Now, I just need to get his hearing back in the field. In the yard, when there is no bird scent around, his hearing is just fine! |
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| 4XGMPR HRCH CLOUDS BOLD BEAR OF NEREUS SH
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 10 Nov 2011 02:51 PM |
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I hear ya about dogs "going deaf" in the hunting field. I run/train Cody (18 mos) twice a day in areas where we encounter pheasants maybe every third or forth session.
Once he gets on scent and he either points them or they flush out ahead of us...Cody is hell bent for election to stay on the scent..even the scent left on the ground after the birds have flushed up.
On one side of my brain, I hate to call him off scent because that's what he's born to do. On the other hand, I have Mike Lardy's collar conditioning advice tattooed on my brain.
He says that once the dog starts responding in a "snappy fashion" to commands without using the collar, he says we need to CREATE non-compliance situations--the point being to deeply embed the conditioned response to comply with the command.
In other words, if there are insufficient correction opportunities there is insufficient conditioning and those insufficiencies tend to show up a lot more in the field than the the yard.
So, I have elected to REQUIRE compliance with the come in ("here") command even if and ESPECIALLY if he's on scent.
It's one of those "who's in charge here" moments...and one that could save the dog's life if the scent leads across a road where there is a car coming...or a railroad track with a train coming.
In a way, calling the dog in when he's on scent is similar to the required "de-chasing" we have to accomplish. In both instances, the dog wants to get to where the bird is...PERIOD...but we can't allow chasing which is probably an even greater temptation to the dog then following ground scent.
So, if I have to bump him with the collar to get him to come in while on scent, that's what I'm going to do.
Regards,
Jim |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 11 Nov 2011 01:25 AM |
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The rule in the system I use to develop manners on birds is to never use the collar on the dog while the bird is on the ground. The dog commits no crime until he puts the bird into the sky and shocking the dog while the bird is on the ground has been known to cause blinking - in fact most pointing dog trainers won't use the collar at all with the dog on birds for that reason. Some are quite vociferous in condemning the practice! Why blinking doesn't result if dog is shocked (with a low level nick) after the bird launches is still somewhat unclear to me - I suspect dog sees it on a par with the insult of bird escaping and it is then no big deal.
If you condition the dog to stop and stand still when he feels a slight e-collar nick, and when a bird flushes, it is safe and effective to use that 'nick' (or higher level) when he puts a bird up. He should learn from that to be more careful and get the bird pointed rather than running it up. Mine did.
Personally I feel the "sit" command is more appropriate as a safety command than recall - as a general rule.
Any hoo, be careful with the electricity when the dog is working birds.
Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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gum
New Member
Posts:37
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| 11 Nov 2011 07:36 PM |
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Not to ff a dog i throw the bs flag all hunting dogs need to be ff .....! |
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Ruby's pal
Advanced Member
Posts:575
SW Oregon
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| 12 Nov 2011 11:56 AM |
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Gum,
That is a pretty strong statement with no explanation, or fact given to back it up.
Please explain why this is critical for every hunting dog? I have hunted behind Shorthairs and now Labs for over 40 years and only 2 of the dogs I have hunted behind, or owned have been through FF. Guess that they just didn't know any better, because they all retrieved birds that were shot. I am not questioning the principle for putting a dog through FF, but do have some heartburn with the blanket statement that "all" hunting dogs need to be FF. It all depends on the owners goals and training capabilities. I agree that it can be beneficial, and I now choose to FF my dogs, but don't feel that it should be thrown out as a blanket statement.
Some of the very best field dogs I have hunted behind were not FF.
Happy hunting.
Pat
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| Lord may I be half the man that my dogs think that I am! |
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Maximillion
Basic Member
Posts:380
Kenly, North Carolina
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| 12 Nov 2011 01:39 PM |
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Max was not FF, but Eli will be FF in January. this is due to a couple small issues we had with Max, not hunting, but in the HT world.
Going by what is being suggested in this topic I probably should wait until he is solid on birds in the upland field, but I am not. January is scheduled with the trainer and then I can get Eli back on birds as it will be 3 months since he was on birds. |
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Richard McCullough
3.5XGMPR HRCH Lankas Labs Brandys Maximillion MH "Max"
CPR SHR Rick's Rooster Smasher of DRL JH "Eli"
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 12 Nov 2011 02:51 PM |
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Posted By gum on 11 Nov 2011 07:36 PM
Not to ff a dog i throw the bs flag all hunting dogs need to be ff .....!
I know one breeder who insists a dog which NEEDS to be ff should not be bred. They don't ff dogs in the British Isles and have some pretty fine dogs for the way they use them - mostly as non-slip retrievers but with some upland work too! See these sites for instance: http://www.gundog-magazine.com/intevent.htm http://www.martindeeley.com/americanretrieverteam.html http://www.altiquinlabradors.com/irishfieldtrials/results_intl_rtr2004_uk.html Mike Lardy used to have a very nice and complete report on the 2004 competition on his site - but its gone. Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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gum
New Member
Posts:37
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| 12 Nov 2011 03:58 PM |
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Okay, maybe not all dogs need to be force fetched. I live in South Dakota hunted with a lot of dogs that weren't force fetched, but every once in awhile they will not dive into the cold water hit the hard rush or pick up a badly shot bird. There are great by products that come with ff like your ob gets a lot better and for the guy that said a dog that needs ff should not be breed we would never have any ft stock. If i could teach 2 commands to a dog it would be here and ff. How do you get your dog to handle without being ff? I'm not talking about a 30 yard blind but a 200-400 yards when they set their wings and sail. But if that's all your expectations is of a hunting dog is to hopefully pick up a bird and your happy with that I'm very happy for you. |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 12 Nov 2011 04:36 PM |
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Posted By gum on 12 Nov 2011 03:58 PM
Okay, maybe not all dogs need to be force fetched. ... for the guy that said a dog that needs ff should not be breed we would never have any ft stock. ... How do you get your dog to handle without being ff? ...
There's a difference between "needing" a total force training program, of which ff is a part, to achieve FT performance (a rampant misconception, easily disproved by naming a single FC or AFC which had never been forced in any way, BTW) and needing ff. A dog which is a natural retriever does not need to be ff to handle. It needs to learn "sit" or some other "stop and give me your attention" command which it obeys anytime and any place; and it needs to learn casting (at the minimum). FORCE is not necessary to achieve this though with most dogs being bred today it may provide the easier path. If you think it is and are happy with your thoughts, I'm happy for you; but you're wrong. Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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gum
New Member
Posts:37
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| 12 Nov 2011 05:33 PM |
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Well Jere I would love to see your dogs handle and did you train them your self |
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