bsmiley
Veteran Member
Posts:1063
Fishers Indiana
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| 04 Oct 2011 12:45 PM |
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As has been mentioned, there are a lot of differnt ways mouth issues manifest themselves (rolling, stopping to mouth the bird, clamping down, and outright crushing the bird as examples). They are generally symptoms of some other issue as Ed mentions and somewhat easily corrected in training for most situations.
I have also been around enough dogs in training to have seen those from the same blood lines tend to react to issues by having similar mouth problems on birds - some lingering issues. In that way I would agree it has a genetic component. I am not saying a dog should be taken out of the gene pool but I have seen dogs in certain common genetic lines react to issues by having strong mouth problems when other dogs tend not to have such strong levels of the problem. Nothing scientific - anecdotal. |
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Cruz, 4XGMPR HRCH MH ("CAT 6")
Yeager, MPR HR (Master Pointing Lap Dog)
Cody, 2XGMPR, MH (BAMF,RIP Friend)
Runnin',Gunnin' & Pickin' Up the Chickens!
www.browngundogs.com
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Tug&Goose
Basic Member
Posts:457
SW MN
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| 04 Oct 2011 08:44 PM |
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There are a great deal of things that can cause a dog to be hard mouthing birds... most of which I believe to be very curable. None of which do I believe to GENETIC... A couple of shot up birds with exposed insides or skin is a tempting thing for any dog young or old or whatever gene pool they come from. I have seen it at times even with very experienced very well trained dogs. I go back to the yard and if need be to the table. go back to walking fetch any mouthing issues gets a collar correction....doesnt need to be severe. You are giving a command Fetch ....Hold ... Here...make sure you carry through with it if any part breaks down correction.
Start with bumpers ... then...frozen birds... then... to freshly killed birds...even shacked live birds. Sometimes in a rush we dont go through all these steps when doing the FF to start with we gettem picking up then straight to the field for marks....Dont rush take your time do it right ! Sometimes EASIER SAID THAN DONE ! |
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| 4XGMPR HRCH Bearpoints Rosco MH |
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Trout Bum
Advanced Member
Posts:530
Elbert County, CO
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| 05 Oct 2011 10:26 AM |
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Sure all kinds of things can cause a hard mouth...but I don't think it's that commone with retrievers.
If you don't think genetics can and does play into it. Why do pit bulls clamp their jaws and don't let go when they bite? |
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| ¶r² |
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Tug&Goose
Basic Member
Posts:457
SW MN
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| 05 Oct 2011 11:31 AM |
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Trout,
Anythings possible ! I just stated I dont believe is to be a genetic issue such as EIC or CNM. I dont believe that you can be a carrier of a hardmouth gene ir be clear of it. Is there sceience behind the claims of being a genetic issue.... I agree Trout Terriers do have that trait of clamping down when they bite..... i have also seen terriers that are very reliable soft mouth retrievers. Most of these mouth issues are causedor a result of something in training ... thats just my opinion... I dont know that forsure I guess. Would love to here some scientific info on the subject .... googled it and only found opinion articals.??? |
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| 4XGMPR HRCH Bearpoints Rosco MH |
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Trout Bum
Advanced Member
Posts:530
Elbert County, CO
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| 05 Oct 2011 01:38 PM |
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Hey Tug,
Marking (eye sight), straight lines (correct build to come back to center and run straight), pointing, retrieving, endurance, intelligence, build, scenting ability are all things that are bred for.
Some dogs have a real knack for finding birds and always seem to be around them. No matter how many dogs are out or run prior to them. Sure training plays into the equation…littermates trained by the same trainer turn out differently
To me it makes sense these traits are genetic, just like a gifted athlete. I don’t see why a hard or soft mouth wouldn’t also be things to breed for and passed on genetically by each parent. Some retrievers deliver to hand about as soon as they can walk. Others may be more inclined to only bring it part way and then drop it. Why, if genetics don't play into the equation?
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| ¶r² |
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John Lindell
New Member
Posts:17
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| 06 Oct 2011 09:04 AM |
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It's been a while since I've posted on here, but I think I will take a few minutes and share some of my experiences.
Having had the opportunity to work with the number of these dogs from generation to generation to generation, many times training most or all of the litter. Training the sires and dam's and sometimes the grand sires and dams. I've come to the conclusion that nearly everything that we experience is genetic related, the good and the bad it's way more than what the average person thinks. And most likely way more than what the very experienced person thinks. I really find it quite fascinating.
Now on this case I would have my doubts that this was really a case of bird eating hard mouth. More likely a pup getting used to the feel of a live bird moving in its mouth. But how a pup reacts to this does seem to be a genetic pattern. I'm no scientist just an old guy that has been around some dogs but I bet I'm not too far off on this.
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Justin
New Member
Posts:44
Central WI
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| 06 Oct 2011 09:25 AM |
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IMO, I think it could be both genetic and environmental and probably varies with each dog. Often times it is difficult to seperate the two (genetics v. environment) and "scientifically" speaking it would be difficult to prove or disprove that "hard mouth" is genetic. The answer all depends on where the burden of proof lies. I would suspect that the actual trait of a dog, especially a labrador retriever, having "hard mouth" is not genetically inherited, certainly not like EIC or CNM, but rather other personality traits that make a dog more or less likely to develop hard mouth are genetically inherited and the environment or situations that they are put into then cause them to develop or not develop hard mouth. So, I believe (IMO) that it is likely a combination of the two, like phenotypic plasticity (the expression of an individuals geneotype in a given environment) for any science geeks like me. So, like I said, IMO it is possible that for some dogs they are more inclinded to develop hard mouth and others are less likely. However, until further scientific evidence is presented everyone will have to continue to make their decisions on whether or not to breed a dog just like we always have. Add this in as one of the factors, just like talent, looks, personality, hips, eyes, genetic diseases, pedigrees, etc... Just my 3 cents. |
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| MPR CK's Jetta's Say Hey Kid (Mays) SH
http://ckpointinglabs.com/
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 06 Oct 2011 11:10 AM |
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Posted By Tug&Goose on 03 Oct 2011 10:00 AM
Jere ,
[1] Are you stating that any dog that has a mouth issue ...its genetic ? Thats and iteresting concept ...
[2] Do you think the parents should stop being bred as well if so ? [1] Not necessarily. OTOH, and in the broadest sense of genetic heritability, maybe so - in the absence of concerted training effort to produce it. I have read there are some breeds of dogs (Sheep guarding dogs for instance) one would be hard pressed to train to be hard mouthed (on sheep) if he wanted to. The question of whether some behavior characteristics have a genetic basis, which may seem "open," is really not so. Different breeds of dogs clearly have different behavior profiles - one author refers to "behavioral conformation" - which just as clearly resulted from selective breeding as did the disparate shapes, coat colors and color patterns, coat composition and length etc. characteristic of the breed. We just do not yet understand the chemistry of such inheritance. [2] Let's put it this way - I don't want to have to deal with one of their puppies. I hope I don't have to. There are literally MILLIONS of Labrador retrievers on the continent. Why perpetuate undesired traits singly or in groups just because skilled trainers are able to "cure" the issue for a few hundred dollars a month. (I once had a discussion with one such trainer on the subject of which pup of a litter was the preferable pick - ALL OTHER knowable characteristics being equal - the one which naturally retrieved a tossed object to hand or the one that ran away and hid with it. He repeatedly, emphatically and even beligerantly insisted he didn't care -- He could train the one I would consider the less desireable to do anything he wanted.) I say, breed for the best total package and let the trainers train what the genes can not provide while polishing what they do provide. I did get some discussion going though! Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Tug&Goose
Basic Member
Posts:457
SW MN
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| 06 Oct 2011 11:37 AM |
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John,
It is great to here a really experienced guy on here that has trained so many dogs and been doing it for a long time ! That is what I wanted to see someone with a great deal of experience shining some light on the situation ! You make some very valid points. I am loving this dicussion ... it had been a great while like you said Jere since we had this many responses on one post !
I agree with you Jere try to breed for the best total package ! I hope no one has to deal with those things !! I bet you that not many people out there would be able to agree as to what the whole total package is to them. To each their own... I personally dont worry to much about things like this that crop up and need to be fixed ... it happens no dog is perfect....no matter what their owners think myself included ha ! Thinking objectively when putting together breedings is something I think most people take pride in doing. And seeing the improvement in these dogs in the last however many years is proof of that ...thats my honest opinion. But like my wife says Im wrong sometimes ...most times ! |
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| 4XGMPR HRCH Bearpoints Rosco MH |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 07 Oct 2011 07:14 AM |
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"Don't breed this dog, possibly even castrate it. "
then
[1] Are you stating that any dog that has a mouth issue ...its genetic ? Thats and iteresting concept ...
[1]" Not necessarily."
Nice dance -- do you waltz as well ?
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 07 Oct 2011 09:24 AM |
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Posted By Doc_E on 07 Oct 2011 07:14 AM
"Don't breed this dog, possibly even castrate it. "
then
[1] Are you stating that any dog that has a mouth issue ...its genetic ? Thats and iteresting concept ...
[1]" Not necessarily."
Nice dance -- do you waltz as well ?
.
The full quote, applied to "any dog that has a hard mouth," continued, "OTOH, and in the broadest sense of genetic heritability, maybe so." No dancing there - just enumerating possibilites - in an attempt at promoting meaningful discussion. Perhaps you'd prescribe a double daily dose of fish or snake oil - along with Vitamin E. BTW, better throw in some Glucosamine too and cold laser therapy too - just in case. Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 08 Oct 2011 09:25 AM |
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Perhaps you'd prescribe a double daily dose of fish or snake oil - along with Vitamin E. BTW, better throw in some Glucosamine too and cold laser therapy too - just in case.
At least I have scientific evidence (except for the snake oil) --- your's seems to be more anecdotal to me.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 08 Oct 2011 09:25 AM |
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Perhaps you'd prescribe a double daily dose of fish or snake oil - along with Vitamin E. BTW, better throw in some Glucosamine too and cold laser therapy too - just in case.
At least I have scientific evidence (except for the snake oil) --- your's seems to be more anecdotal to me.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 08 Oct 2011 09:55 AM |
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Posted By Doc_E on 08 Oct 2011 09:25 AM
Perhaps you'd prescribe a double daily dose of fish or snake oil - along with Vitamin E. BTW, better throw in some Glucosamine too and cold laser therapy too - just in case.
At least I have scientific evidence (except for the snake oil) --- your's seems to be more anecdotal to me.
.
There is substantial evidence spanning several centuries at least for the heritability of behavioral traits in dogs. The situation is similar to many other situations in science, the facts are so ubiquitous and persistent as to be be beyond serious question.
OTOH, I'd be pleased to see you provide references to creditable reports on a connection between prevention or cure of hard mouth and supplementation with any of the compounds mentioned.
In addition, anecdotal evidence is what initiates serious investigation. Only after serious investigation can claims of efficacy be made. You don't seem to understand that fact,
I'm done bantering with you here on this subject. I have more interesting questions to explore.
Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 08 Oct 2011 10:12 AM |
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Posted By John Lindell on 06 Oct 2011 09:04 AM
It's been a while since I've posted on here, but I think I will take a few minutes and share some of my experiences.
Having had the opportunity to work with the number of these dogs from generation to generation to generation, many times training most or all of the litter. Training the sires and dam's and sometimes the grand sires and dams. I've come to the conclusion that nearly everything that we experience is genetic related, the good and the bad it's way more than what the average person thinks. And most likely way more than what the very experienced person thinks. I really find it quite fascinating.
Now on this case I would have my doubts that this was really a case of bird eating hard mouth. More likely a pup getting used to the feel of a live bird moving in its mouth. But how a pup reacts to this does seem to be a genetic pattern. I'm no scientist just an old guy that has been around some dogs but I bet I'm not too far off on this.
If you're still around, John; I'm struck by your experience with developing whole litters. There aren't many folks I know of who have had the opportunity to do that. I'm sure you learned a lot more than you've told from doing that. Would you say something about how early in a pup's life you feel comfortable and confident in making a judgement about how it might turn out as an adult, or how suitable it might be in a breeding program? I'm thinking more of a pup from a litter you wouldn't have real long term intimate familiarity with the parents from puppy through adult - just with the adults, but the case you've described is also interesting. Do you feel you can make such judgement reliably at the usual delivery age of 7 - 12 weeks or do you want to have some observations of the pups as they mature more and get into learning and training scenarios? We could start another thread on this one if there is interest. Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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younggunz
New Member
Posts:40
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| 08 Oct 2011 10:47 AM |
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Definitely dont have anything scientific to say or even close... Just own a couple PLs and hunting around for another to pick up early next spring. One thing I definitely wouldn't want to hear about (either the sire or dam of my new pup) would be for 2 months at a professional trainer they spent correcting him or her from clamping down on birds before doing what they are naturally bred to do. Retrieve! From the sounds of it, not knowing if Jere breeds PLs or not, I would pick a pup from him blind folded. As long as they are all black females! Lol just what I'm looking for |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 08 Oct 2011 11:56 AM |
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Posted By Jere on 08 Oct 2011 09:55 AM
There is substantial evidence spanning several centuries at least for the heritability of behavioral traits in dogs. The situation is similar to many other situations in science, the facts are so ubiquitous and persistent as to be be beyond serious question.
Including a genetic predisposition to hardmouth ?
OTOH, I'd be pleased to see you provide references to creditable reports on a connection between prevention or cure of hard mouth and supplementation with any of the compounds mentioned.
I don't know of any -- you were the one who brought this up -- not me.
In addition, anecdotal evidence is what initiates serious investigation. Only after serious investigation can claims of efficacy be made. You don't seem to understand that fact,
I understand perfectly well.... But I think it would be prudent of you when stating something like "the dog should be castrated" to preface that kind of statement with an "IMO"
I'm done bantering with you here on this subject. I have more interesting questions to explore.
Bantering ? Blathering might be more accurate.
Jere |
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 08 Oct 2011 11:16 PM |
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Posted By younggunz on 08 Oct 2011 10:47 AM
... From the sounds of it, not knowing if Jere breeds PLs or not, I would pick a pup from him blind folded. As long as they are all black females! Lol just what I'm looking for Thanks for the vote of confidence, younggunz. I'm sorry but I don't breed PLs. I had thought about it several years ago, but by that time I was too far along in years to start a multi-decade project like that and had no one to keep the project going after I go on to the "happy hunting ground" so I abandoned the idea. Good luck in your search. Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Hillshunter
New Member
Posts:9
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| 10 Oct 2011 04:24 PM |
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Status Update
I hunted the dog all weekend here in SD and the results were great!!! He retrieved 9 roosters and 6 ducks all to hand without any hint of hard mouth issue. I guess I would almost consider him to have a soft mouth now compared to a couple other dogs I have had. The dog performed very well considering he is only a little over a year old. This next spring when the dog runs in the APLA nobody would ever guess there was a problem..... if you consider it a true problem in this case. They will just be sitting back and admiring a dog doing his thing.
I think John Lindell nailed it when he said "it was just a pup learning." I read his response and it fit the situation almost perfectly. You could tell he was a guy that has been around the block, has a level head, and doesn't jump to conclusions. The dog doesn't show any signs or problems in true hunting situations and shows a bunch of talent and potential. I don't think most breeders/owners would castrate a dog like this. I was probably was too quick to actually call it "hard mouth." He comes from great bloodlines and he and his siblings show some great potential.
A big thanks goes to the guys that looked at things in a positive light and offered up some knowledge and experiences. That was what I was looking for!!! If you want to continue to argue go ahead....I'll be loving life while hunting with a very fine dog!!.... in most enlightened peoples opinions.
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