I'm fairly new to the dog training world other than sit/heel type stuff. I was just wondering how most of you guys handle a dog that likes to chomp on birds. Just looking for stories and tips. Thanks!

Force Fetch



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The dog has been through Force Fetch and since the issue arose revisited. He is starting his 4 month at the trainer. I also took him back for a month after the first two which also probably impacted the progress....money got tight and I took him back. Hind sight I should have scratched up some extra money and kept him there.

The question I should have asked should have been about dogs that regressed or became inconsistent and what triggered some of that behavior.Obedience is normally where to look first. When I dropped him off he performed well. There were a couple events that may have impacted his progression. The first was a couple females came into heat. That should no longer be an issue. The second was a chipped/broken tooth. The tooth should be removed next week. I have a lot of faith in the trainer and I'm sure he will get him back into shape shortly.

I by no means am an expert trainer, but one thing that I have done with the dogs I've trained is that I've always started them on frozen birds first.  Will even do so before force fetching them.  I've never had a dog that had a hard mouth.  Whether that's because of the frozen birds or just because I've been lucky and have been blessed with good dogs, I don't know, but it might be something you can try.  After force fetching, I'll start to alternate between frozen and thawed birds, or freshly shot birds for training.

Please describe exactly what the dog is doing --- Crunching? --- Plucking ? --- being Possessive ? --- Stopping to 'hard mouth" before he returns to you or what ?



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The only time there seems to be a problem is with a freshly shot bird in the upland field. He wants to "crunch/eat" the bird and not retrieve it to the trainer. I guess you could say he is stopping to hard mouth and doesn't want to retrieve the bird (combination crunching and possessive). The dog can do well one day and act up the next day. He hasn't exhibited the problem when running marks with frozen/thawed birds. There is something with the freshly shot birds that may have triggered it (just a guess). I'm sure the trainer has it under control. I'm just trying to learn a little so if it arises again after he is back from the trainer I can be aware of how to handle it. I'm not there most of the time so this is second hand knowledge.

OK -- Then IMO (and Only MO), the dog is taking possession of the bird. He sees it as HIS and not YOURS.
There are a lot of things to try, but what I've seen that works best is to teach "Remote Drop". I'm not really sure why this works, (but it does) but my guess is that it is teaching the dog that the bird belongs to you, no matter where in the field the dog happens to be......... Dog psychology frequently baffles me.



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That sounds like good advice. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this subject a bit. The thing that perplexed me most was the fact he was doing really well and then just picked up that habit. It would be nice to know what was going through his head some days when he isn't performing the way I know he can. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again!

It seems to me that the primary fundamental of basic obedience is the issue...that being RESPONSIVENESS to each and every command, each and every time.
Your description is that a bird is shot...the dog retrieves it and then totally IGNORES your call back command. In the MEANTIME he's munching on YOUR bird but the ISSUE is that he is ignoring your come in command.

Personally, I would get him OFF shot birds...maybe frozen ones as another poster suggested and get back to BASICS including the come in command but paying lots of attention to SIT, HEEL, REMOTE SITS, COME IN SITS and just in general "proof" the dog on willing and immediate obedience to commands EVERY TIME....NO EXCEPTIONS.

There may be dogs who abuse fresh killed birds while on a snappy return to the handler's come in command but I don't recall ever seeing that behavior.

IMHO it is vital to trace any behavioral issues back to the SOURCE and it seems to me that the SOURCE of the chomping issue is the refusal to obey the come in command. The chomping only RESULTS from the come in refusal.

Dogs do best what they do most so every time he chomps, he is being TAUGHT that chomping is fine so I think it is vital to remove any chance of that happening for the time being which means to get him off shot birds entirely until the come in command is being obeyed immediately and in a snappy fashion.

Is the dog collar conditioned? The modern and humane collar conditioning techniques such as those taught by Mike Lardy are specifically intended to create SNAPPY and IMMEDIATE obedience to all commands, all the time...no exceptions.

And with ALL due respect...and not intending to disparage a trainer I don't even know or the issues he faces with your particular dog...it seems to me that any dog that is in his 4th month of pro training that isn't responding to basic obedience commands without fail and in spite of all kinds of temptations/distractions/pressure may not be with the right trainer.



All just my 2 cents.
Best,
Jim

PS: I am concerned that my earlier post might be perceived as disparaging to your trainer and I want to make it ABUNDANTLY clear that that was not my intent. A DIFFERENT trainer does not necessarily imply a BETTER trainer. For example, in one of Julie's Training Tips she tells the story of coming to her wits end on a particular dog and was seriously considering sending it home. Finally, in desperation, she tried ONE more technique that she had never had the occasion to use and bingo...problem solved.

She hastens to add that she has NO CLUE why the dog's behavior changed...All she know is that it did. (Training Tips March 2006). In a somewhat related story she tells of another dog who just WOULD NOT walk to the line with her without acting up BADLY. She tried everything but nothing was working. Again, in desperation, she asked her husband, Paul, to see what he could do and bingo...problem solved. It is VERY interesting how that story plays out so I would suggest you get hold of Training Tips, April 2006 to see what they think the issue was.

But my POINT is that I was NOT disparaging your trainer...only suggesting that as noted above different techniques not known to all trainers or sometimes, just a different trainer is the answer. NO disrespect intended!!!

best,
Jim

There were a lot of factors that came into play if you read through everything. The trainer basically did everything you mentioned "av84fun." It most definitely isn't the trainers first rodeo. I think his pass rates in the APLA and AKC can attest to that. Something clicked in the dogs head that had to be worked through. I'll be picking the dog up here shortly and I will provide an update.

The trainer and the dog worked through it and came a long ways in a month as far as retriever training is concerned. Looking forward to getting him out hunting....to bad it is so darn hot.

The trainer and the dog worked through it and came a long ways in a month as far as retriever training is concerned. Looking forward to getting him out hunting....to bad it is so darn hot.

This woouldn't have helped your situation, but it may promote some discussion.

Don't breed this dog, possibly even castrate it. The retriever world doesn't need these genes.

Jere

I am glad the problem seems to have been solved. If it happens again, think about this....

When the dogs stops on the way in with the bird to do ANYTHING, what is the dog not doing? The dog is not coming-so the dog is not responding to "here". Correct the dog for that, and see if it fixes the other problem....

Jere ,

Are you stating that any dog that has a mouth issue ...its genetic ? Thats and iteresting concept ... Do you think the parents should stop being bred as well if so ?

Gotta agree with Doc E on this one. Hard mouth is a TRAINING issue. We don't take dogs out of the gene pool for not retrieving to hand. We Force Fetch them. Same for hard mouth but there are LOTS of remedies. And hey...tooth punctures in a pheasant or duck breast will just make them more tender!!! (-: Best, Jim

Posted By hooligan on 03 Oct 2011 09:35 AM
I am glad the problem seems to have been solved. If it happens again, think about this....

When the dogs stops on the way in with the bird to do ANYTHING, what is the dog not doing? The dog is not coming-so the dog is not responding to "here". Correct the dog for that, and see if it fixes the other problem....

EXXXXXACTLY! (-:

While hardmouth can sometimes be caused by training, it can also be caused by experience. A young dog who has a bad experience with a still live bird, particularly a large pheasant may learn that biting down hard solves the problem. I have been around both types of dogs, those who have had bad training experiences that lead to hard mouth and those that have bad life experiences that lead to hard mouth. Most dogs with hard mouth fall in to one of these categories.

However, having bred dogs in the traditional pointer(setter) lines, I also believe that it can be hereditory. We also saw it go the other way where dogs were so soft mouthed that it created issues.

One thing in terms of breeding to remember is that when these bird dog breeds were developed, a soft mouth was a definate top ten consideration as a dog that has torn up the game and made it unfit for the table, isnt of much use. If I knew the life history of the dog, knew the training and life experience and they exhibited hard mouth, I personally would not breed them. Particularly a labrador whose primary breeding purpose is to softly retrieve shot game.

To me, punctures in game are unacceptible.