keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1586
Pierce, Colorado
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| 01 Jul 2011 03:48 PM |
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You know you just dont know how big of difference there is between the two until you see a pup that does alot of its training on wild birds.......  Here is a link  He was my pick of the litter that i sold to a guy in Pinedale Wyoming, |
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
MPR HRCH It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
CP HR Blazin' White Thunder JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty
CP SHR KB'S Princess Sage
CP SHR KB'S They Call Me "Beau"
CP KB'S Right To The Point Ike
KB'S Lil' Husker Champ
KB'S Hunters Dream |
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Top Dog Kennels
Advanced Member
Posts:681
South Dakota
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| 01 Jul 2011 04:41 PM |
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He looks great Kevin. Very Nice |
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| "Gettin' Straight To the Point" |
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1586
Pierce, Colorado
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| 01 Jul 2011 05:23 PM |
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So does this take down the theory that the retrieve is more important than the find? |
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
MPR HRCH It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
CP HR Blazin' White Thunder JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty
CP SHR KB'S Princess Sage
CP SHR KB'S They Call Me "Beau"
CP KB'S Right To The Point Ike
KB'S Lil' Husker Champ
KB'S Hunters Dream |
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Top Dog Kennels
Advanced Member
Posts:681
South Dakota
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| 01 Jul 2011 06:21 PM |
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Who's theory is that? |
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| "Gettin' Straight To the Point" |
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1586
Pierce, Colorado
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| 01 Jul 2011 07:49 PM |
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I have seen it on here alot and may even said it myself  , not so sure i agree with the retrieve being of high importance as the find in a pointing dog..... |
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
MPR HRCH It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
CP HR Blazin' White Thunder JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty
CP SHR KB'S Princess Sage
CP SHR KB'S They Call Me "Beau"
CP KB'S Right To The Point Ike
KB'S Lil' Husker Champ
KB'S Hunters Dream |
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OD
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 03 Jul 2011 11:09 AM |
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Real common assumption by a lot of retriever people that the dog has to have a retrieve with every contact with a bird. Go hang out with a really good pro pointer trainer. Someone that trains the continental breeds. Especially a hunt test, field trial trainer. They will launch ten birds or more before they shot one for the dog. Why is that? Think about it the way a dog does.
I will also let you in on a training tip all really good pointing trainers do. They never blow the wings off the birds like I see too many people do. They drop birds out at the edge of shotgun range. There are several reasons for this. Again think like a dog it you will understand why.
The retrieve is important at the right times. Just as is allowing a backing dog to retrieve the bird is.
If you look at all training situations from your dog perspective you will see all kinds of things you would not see otherwise. The best trainers, those that continue to learn and apply what the dogs teach, learn from the dogs. They are telling you things all the time when your interested in learning from them.
Gary
PRG |
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hooligan
Veteran Member
Posts:1346
Pac NW
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| 03 Jul 2011 11:18 AM |
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Posted By keskam on 01 Jul 2011 05:23 PM
So does this take down the theory that the retrieve is more important than the find?
LeRoy, I for one have said it, because I think it is true for my dog. I do not believe that he would value finding a bird as much as getting one in his mouth. He is a good, staunch pointer-but I do not believe he would consider finding/pointing a bird his reward-I think it is what he does in order to ultimately make a retrieve. He's a retrieve-o-holic!  Sorry-I like the video, but I do not understand what it has to do with wild or pen raised birds? |
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| APR SHR TDK's Dusty Gunslinger JH "Churchill"
CPR Max's Black Diamond Girl Scout JH "Scout" |
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1586
Pierce, Colorado
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| 03 Jul 2011 01:30 PM |
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Posted By hooligan on 03 Jul 2011 11:18 AM
Posted By keskam on 01 Jul 2011 05:23 PM
So does this take down the theory that the retrieve is more important than the find? LeRoy, I for one have said it, because I think it is true for my dog. I do not believe that he would value finding a bird as much as getting one in his mouth. He is a good, staunch pointer-but I do not believe he would consider finding/pointing a bird his reward-I think it is what he does in order to ultimately make a retrieve. He's a retrieve-o-holic!
Sorry-I like the video, but I do not understand what it has to do with wild or pen raised birds?
Hooli, Gator has been trained on alot of wild birds IE sage grouse,notice his point is a good distance as not to pressure the birds and would of held that point forever,, (I think the wild birds taught him that) and the fact he is just now 1 year old, and has the bird sence of a mature dog, You will not see that very rarely with a young dog on pen rasied birds. IMO..
If this dog had his retriever skills down he would be a shoe in for a MPR this fall. But Eric goes all over to hunt birds.
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
MPR HRCH It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
CP HR Blazin' White Thunder JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty
CP SHR KB'S Princess Sage
CP SHR KB'S They Call Me "Beau"
CP KB'S Right To The Point Ike
KB'S Lil' Husker Champ
KB'S Hunters Dream |
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hooligan
Veteran Member
Posts:1346
Pac NW
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| 03 Jul 2011 02:08 PM |
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Thanks, Kevin. I always thought holding a point on the first sign of bird scent was just the mark of a natural pointer with a good nose....never thought it mattered what kinds of birds they were.... |
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| APR SHR TDK's Dusty Gunslinger JH "Churchill"
CPR Max's Black Diamond Girl Scout JH "Scout" |
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billybobtuff
New Member
Posts:1
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| 03 Jul 2011 11:03 PM |
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Thought I would chime in. The video is mine and I have had a number of examples about like it. On the wild birds he will lock up on birds 30 - 80 feet out. When I have tame birds ( pigeon) in a launcher, he will crowd them. I.ll see about getting a video from day before yesterday on a grouse that stood up and walked off on him. He has learned that these grouse wont tolerate being crowded. I grabbed his collar on that one because I didn't want him to charge it,though he was solid. I am sure that running him on the wild birds has made him a lot more dog. As far as retrieve. . . He wants 'em! But he doesn't have to have a bird in mouth to be motivated. |
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hooligan
Veteran Member
Posts:1346
Pac NW
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| 04 Jul 2011 07:03 AM |
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He's a nice dog for sure, billybobtuff. What happens if you put a pigeon in the grass without the launcher-will he still crowd it? |
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| APR SHR TDK's Dusty Gunslinger JH "Churchill"
CPR Max's Black Diamond Girl Scout JH "Scout" |
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Paco
Advanced Member
Posts:856
On a trout stream in NW, MI.
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| 04 Jul 2011 09:37 AM |
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Posted By billybobtuff on 03 Jul 2011 11:03 PM
Thought I would chime in. The video is mine and I have had a number of examples about like it. On the wild birds he will lock up on birds 30 - 80 feet out. When I have tame birds ( pigeon) in a launcher, he will crowd them. I.ll see about getting a video from day before yesterday on a grouse that stood up and walked off on him. He has learned that these grouse wont tolerate being crowded. I grabbed his collar on that one because I didn't want him to charge it,though he was solid. I am sure that running him on the wild birds has made him a lot more dog. As far as retrieve. . . He wants 'em! But he doesn't have to have a bird in mouth to be motivated. Wecome, Nice first post. |
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________________________________________
Founding member- Michigan Mafia (aka MM ;)
4X GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "GATOR"
GMPR HRCH HRKs Liberators Outlaw "RONDO" SH
GMPR VeraGators Smokin' Diablo of G'Force "SMOKEY"
Trust your dogs - Let 'em Roll
www.gforceretrievers.com
Outlaw Upland~Waterfowl Labs
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1586
Pierce, Colorado
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| 04 Jul 2011 12:24 PM |
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Frank every one of mine has(at least for phez that is), BUT WHen i go out hunting i bag a few then train the rest of the day with the young ones on wild birds, Plus my bird buying budget would scare a few,,
They learn so much quicker then on pen raised birds, but on pen raised birds it helps to if they are put down running and not shaken, it will push the dogs back on point so the crowding doesnt occur BUT not like the real thing, IMO
Eric has a nice Dog there, i think may be coming to our test for a CP run.......
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
MPR HRCH It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
CP HR Blazin' White Thunder JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty
CP SHR KB'S Princess Sage
CP SHR KB'S They Call Me "Beau"
CP KB'S Right To The Point Ike
KB'S Lil' Husker Champ
KB'S Hunters Dream |
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Trout Bum
Advanced Member
Posts:530
Elbert County, CO
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| 05 Jul 2011 07:42 PM |
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You already know how I feel about it Kevin.
Great job Billybob, Gator looks like he's got some wheels on him.
IMHO that's some text book handling there.....and exactly what you should be doing with a young pointing dog. Come in from an angle, don't say a word. Birds flush in gun range, pup stops on his own after a short chase. Billybob uses perfect timing and gives him an ada boy when he shows back up. Gator gets on with his business in hunting, taking in that scent, learning about birds.....and I suspect about ready to go find more.
I'd put that collar on the shelf, toss those bird launchers in the trash and train him on those grouse. There will be chicks running all over the place in short time. You'll be ready for the season, there is no doubt. Shoot as many birds as you can over him this fall and when your season is over. Slip a rope on him and break him to wing and shot.
That was a really nice find, I've always felt the reward was in the find. Great job with the pup. Keep it up dude!
So tell us how much of that you trained for and how much Gator learned from those grouse?
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| ¶r² |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 07 Jul 2011 12:06 AM |
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Posted By hooligan on 03 Jul 2011 02:08 PM
Thanks, Kevin. I always thought holding a point on the first sign of bird scent was just the mark of a natural pointer with a good nose....never thought it mattered what kinds of birds they were....
If you think about the origin of the hunting dog and the "point"ing behavior it should be pretty obvious that the dog is most naturally inclined to point (exaggerated "pause before pounce") only when it has located the bird - is on the verge of capturing the bird after searching for "signs" ("search" mode) and then going into "locate" mode (getting "birdy.") Standing way back off birds, perhaps w/o actually fixing the location is a consequence of repeated escape by birds too skittish to allow such close approach (except in the case of a dog trained by misguided folks who thing a dog should stop and stand at first scent and are willing to accept the downside consequences of such training.) A natural pointer with a good nose will do its darndest to locate the bird before pointing. Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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steelheadfred
New Member
Posts:54
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| 10 Jul 2011 06:06 AM |
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You will never convince me that bird dogs, pointing or flushing, don't reach a saturation point with planted birds that retards their ability to handle the wild version. |
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Trout Bum
Advanced Member
Posts:530
Elbert County, CO
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| 12 Jul 2011 07:40 PM |
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Posted By steelheadfred on 10 Jul 2011 06:06 AM
You will never convince me that bird dogs, pointing or flushing, don't reach a saturation point with planted birds that retards their ability to handle the wild version.
No kidding and it doesn't take long...Through trial and error, with plenty of errors. I've done my best to stay away from them. I get around them by accident sometimes, my dogs and I've both been know to blink them. |
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| ¶r² |
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Paco
Advanced Member
Posts:856
On a trout stream in NW, MI.
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| 12 Jul 2011 09:27 PM |
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Thank you, thank you very much....
Most if not 90 some percent use planted to teach the manners, give them the tool set, it's up to the owners to give the exposure to the birds they will hunt.
If it's preserve birds, quite easy for most.
If it's wild birds, that takes some more effort for dog owner and dog. If it's gambrells or say (I don't know) Grouse around these parts, much more exposure and seasons for hunter and dog to get it figured (Some never will).
All those that breed can do is breed dogs with the innate talent, then the pup owners have dogs that should be able to figure them birdies out if given some good basic training and the exposure, lots of exposure, It's all up to them.
A broken record here, but if I want a dog to be successful at hunting wild birds, my guess is the best bet is to seek (that pups) parents that do. |
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________________________________________
Founding member- Michigan Mafia (aka MM ;)
4X GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "GATOR"
GMPR HRCH HRKs Liberators Outlaw "RONDO" SH
GMPR VeraGators Smokin' Diablo of G'Force "SMOKEY"
Trust your dogs - Let 'em Roll
www.gforceretrievers.com
Outlaw Upland~Waterfowl Labs
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 13 Jul 2011 12:01 AM |
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Dog's can learn much of the right stuff from wild caught pigeons flown (carded) into the training area or released from a releaser (even a launcher can work OK if the handler thinks like a bird). The best choice is actual wild game birds and transition to them is essential to finish pup, but everyone doesn't have access to enough of those to get the job done expeditiously. Well, that's the way I see it now.
Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Paco
Advanced Member
Posts:856
On a trout stream in NW, MI.
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| 13 Jul 2011 12:33 AM |
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Agreed Jere. Reality is most folks don't have access to whatever wild birds they want to hunt without some serious effort. Training and bringing the dogs along are with pen birds for a large majority nowadays I gotta believe. The transition to wild birds is in the hands of the pup owner, not in the hands of the breeder is what I am getting at. I think you just said that  .... so did I again, and that doesn't mean I disagree with Fritz either. Lots of choices and balancing to do to get where you want with your dogs. |
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________________________________________
Founding member- Michigan Mafia (aka MM ;)
4X GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "GATOR"
GMPR HRCH HRKs Liberators Outlaw "RONDO" SH
GMPR VeraGators Smokin' Diablo of G'Force "SMOKEY"
Trust your dogs - Let 'em Roll
www.gforceretrievers.com
Outlaw Upland~Waterfowl Labs
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