This evening I got a few quail, I set one out in the pasture, Zeke (3.5 month old pup) found it, pointed it shortly, then caught it when it flew. He looked like he was trying to eat it. I swiftly moved up to him to take it away. He wouldn't give it up , he was clamped down so hard I had to use both hands just to get his mouth open and shake the bird out. I know it had to cause him pain when I was taking the bird. And I obviously Dont want him to associate pain with birds! What should I do??? I'm not putting him on any more birds until I get some more info!

As far as "what to do", don't put the pup on birds that can be caught.

The best way to get a puppy to "drop" (give) any object that is in their mouth is to lift up on the flap of skin that is just in front of the back leg.



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Thanks for the info. I've decided to just let the trainer do the bird work. I'll just stick to the basics. Don't want to do harm than good.

You did everything wrong! You'll be lucky if he brings the next bird anywhere near you and it might take a lot of effort to cure! You should have just let him have the bird until he brought it to you and wanted to give it to you or ate it.

Jere

Jere, it says in Julie's book "if your dog actually catches a bird don't make a big deal of it, just get the bird away from him."! It's my opinion if the pup eats the bird he learns he is hunting for himself, not me!

I'm with Jere. FWIW.
We are talking first encounters here, correct ?
My current group of pups are 4.5 mths , all I care about at this time on birds is getting them very " bird crazy ".
If they point/or not, then chase, then capture, well that's quite alright with me, HECK IF THEY EAT IT THATS FINE TOO.....
I don't want it to become a habit, but it's way early to fret much about. The best scenario is of course uncatchable birds, but they are hard to come by at times. You can make it harder for the dog to catch by using the cover to the birds advantage etc.

I know the point is there by the breeding, it will show ( already has ). The building/bringing out of birdyness is what I am after. I want out of control chase for quite awhile ( before I start teaching manners a bit ).

3.5 mths, the pup " IS " hunting for himself, it's innate behavior. Not a big deal to me, that will change over time....IMO too many squelch the chase way too soon........my two cents.

......................................Paco

Well, I think "you did everything wrong" is a little harsh. It is good to see that drive in a young dog. Cruz is the first dog I started upland bird exposure that young. I can remember a call to Paco freaking out because he managed to scream accross the field through 8-10" of snow and clear it of some lazy pen quail in about 5 minutes. I didn't know a 15 week old dog could move that fast. Per Paco and Dale "that is what they are suppose to do at that age".  I had a hard time with it as circumstances requred me starting upland work with my pevious two after they had been ff.  I had a little struggle getting the first one out of his mouth. Let him run big and learn the "find", yes as Frank says he is hunting for himself, he is a baby. But he is learning to hunt a field and learning how fun it is.

Piperflier,

I introduce pups to birds at around six weeks old if I produce them. It is a controlled situation with birds in a crate. They can climb all over it even pull a feather or two out if they can get them. They learn what they are, smell like, look like and how to find them. I always introduce birds the first time that are too big to send down the hatch. Frozen pigeons and small ducks even at eight weeks. I let them hang on to them and give plenty of praise. This will help eliminate the keep away game! Initially I don't worry if they get a little ruff ( aggressive ) towards birds. I want them to be bold and aggressive. As far as catching birds goes ( pigeon pole) that ends shortly though after the have been taught what birds are and how to aggressively locate them. It is a balancing act. As long as pup is not chewing the bird they can hold the bird. If they start chewing the game is over. Anything you allow to happen you reinforce!

You should teach in increments. First phase is teach what birds are, then how to find them. Then move onto don't move when you locate them ( this should be what a pointer wants to do initially) , steadiness on point, wing ,shot, fall. I do things much different than most other PL trainers. My dogs understand all the sequences of the pointing game before field work takes place. They understand the concepts before applied in the field. I want the tools in place when I go to the field. That is where I polish things up not teach the basic concepts. I only whoa if there is a bird in front of the dog. Think about it for a moment. What is the purpose of whoa?

Think Like A Dog!

Gary

PRG

Ya, Bsmiley, I coulda proly found something right in the story to say something nice about - having a "bad hair time." OTOH, nice people were nice to me about the very same stuff and it didn't help - I made the same mistake myself and had to work through it. Thought I'd try the steam-roller technique. piperfler, listen to Frank (paco). He's a little rabid about all that wild chase/capture stuff but ...

Dog eating bird won't (generally) hurt a thing but grabbing bird out of its mouth and hurting it in the process can do major damage. Be your pups best buddy, create a drive and desire in him to want to hunt but to hunt with you.

Jere (citabria flier)

Rabid ? You bet I am ( More about the chase, of course, than the capture ). Can't recall the last Rabies shot.....

When I produced them, I introduced the pups to birds in utero - starting a few days before the expected whelping date. Then they had wings in the whelping box from birth on and at 5 -6 weeks they got to play with shackled birds as a pack.

If I ever "produce" another litter, I'll start earlier.

Jere

i had beagles that would swallow a full grown rabbit.i think letting the dog have bird is fine. i would say to him DROP IT.or walk a little ways and say  BACK.
YOUNG DOG IS HARD TO GET TO LISTEN .this is why i like training a dog to somewhat obey me before he would get bird or rabbit.like i throw a ball to toby at 3.5 months and said, BACK.after a week, he brought it back. now on grouse i say BACK  and if he feels like it he will bring it back.

I also introduce early. But real bird intro (for my dogs ) is between 12 and 24 weeks.

Piper, first thing - relax. Forum posters seem to understand that when teaching a dog anything, the teaching thing comes before enforcement or correction, and the same principle applies to people learning things. You are new to this I take it, so remember this isn't brain surgery, take your time and enjoy this process. Sometimes little dogs catch birds. It isn't the goal and you need to have birds that aren't real catchable, but big dogs catch birds too sometimes, including pointers and retrievers that point. I think retrievers eating birds has some downsides you don't want, at least I've never found it useful.

Your goal with a young pup is to establish the love of live birds, so you can't do that by avoiding live birds. You do need to keep a balance, something not everyone on here agrees with, between love of birds and being responsive to you on a fairly tight basis. I think your worry about hurting your dog is far more in your mind than your pups. If you do that repeatedly it could become an issue, but I doubt that will happen.

There are a number of approaches to all of this, not one right way and the others wrong. Pay more attention to what your pup is telling you than all the Internet information you get. Common sense is a big factor as well, so use that as one of your tools to decide what to do. Keep training though, worry less and have a little more fun.

I have spent a lot of time with some really, really good dog people, including pointer experts. The ones that knew the most said "I don't know" more than all the others put together. In the recent past, I was privileged to spend some time with John Koenig, the K of K&L Kennels. I got some ideas and thoughts from him that at first seemed a little counter-intuitive, but when I tried them, discovered a few things new to me. I gained a respect for that man training I couldn't have had if I hadn't spent the time there. In fact, some of the trainers you guys respect for titles on dogs had John do their upland work - and you'll never hear him tell a soul that fact. He's one of those heart-to-heart dog trainers who cares more about the dog than what everybody else thinks. You ought to throw some of your young dog questions out to him, Dazed and Confused I think is his name on here.

Anyway Piper, you obviously care a whole lot. Your pup is lucky, but keep on training and keeping the final goal in mind. You will do fine, I just bet!

Julie

Julie you consistantly put a smile on my face.

Ever think about getting in to politics?

Responsive to you, a very good point.
One that has been rolling around in my head lately, because I see folks somehow missing that connection.

It was written on the Yahoo pointingdogs group:

"This summer we've been working some young dogs and it's been fun because they are all different. But we are looking for the same thing in all of them. We want to see dust fly when they run down a bird and catch it. In other words, we want to see the predator in them before they advance."

Thought you'd like that, Frank!

How's everyone's summer? We're headed for record remaining snow on the mountain! I'll post a picture or two after the Fourth.

Jere

Jere, Yeah, you know I do. Actually did that a bit today with the black pack "junior group". The boys are way behind the girls, but they will catch up. They always do, or we would not be here.....LOL !

I don't know, but I think guys and girls are different ( ya think? ), in oh so many ways. Thankfully we have JK to keep us in balance , AND WE NEED IT, and she does. The summer is a very good one here. The Hex hatch is winding down and the dog thing is good at the moment, in fact today, very good. Hope the same to all.

Frank, I know several folks who wouldn't have a male dog. One, especially, warned me about male Labs. - said they were always wandering.

Well, we've had two male Labs and one female. It's a pretty small sample certainly, but I prefer both males to the female - in subtle ways. I've had NO regrets about either of them as companions, friends, housedogs, hunters. Maybe I could pick on some specifics as any objective person would undoubtedly be able to do for ANY dog but, on balance, there are no complaints at all. One, especially, has been such a remarkable personality, it is hard for me to imagine a better dog for me, though as a "pointing dog" he could have been balanced a bit more evenly.

Sandy saw a hen spruce grouse with a couple (or more) chicks today as she walked with Storm in the afternoon. I may try and get some photos soon.

Jere

A dog may be "responsive" to a human in many ways and for many reasons.

A friend who died early last year after a lifetime working dogs said he could pretty much describe the history of a dog and his owner by first watching the two interact when the owner threw a bumper for the dog to retrieve. The early bonding "exercises" go a long way to establishing how the dog is responsive to the owner/trainer.

Sometimes, somehow, there is some sort of natural bonding that just happens, something chemical? - it is like what we call "love at first sight" between humans. So it was with Storm (the dog in my avatar) and me. I met him at about 13 weeks of age when he showed that "dust flying" birdiness mentioned above as he and littermates were introduced to live birds during a puppy release session at the breeders' kennel. I was working at a seminar there to learn from some "experts" and meet some people in real life whom I'd known from internet connections for sometime. I was not looking for a puppy. The breeder told the folks there who were to pick pups from the litter that "The one with the blue collar is Jere's." I didn't know what to say or do considering I already had two dogs traveling in the camper with us on our extended winter trips. I wanted to just politely decline and urge someone else to take him. The breeder asked me to show the folks how to manipulate a wing on string to teach the pup he couldn't catch birds (a practice I'm not all that high on now) and I did. From then on the little guy in the blue collar wouldn't let me out of his sight. He followed me everywhere except when I went walking into the fields. There he ran ahead 50 or more yards hunting - for something. He didn't know what he was looking for, but he hunted like a much more experienced dog. That evening, when he crawled up on the mattress I was sleeping on and went to sleep with his head on my shoulder, my fate was sealed and he had his first of two rides in a dog crate on a flight to Anchorage a week or ten days later. He and I have been like two peas in a pod since - essentially inseparable.

Jere