RR, this has gotten very confusing to me. Be careful watching a variety of methods and hearing all kinds of approaches. It isn't that there is a right and wrong here; people come up with methods that make sense to them, fall within their comfort range, and then you have to decide which is right. I wouldn't do the mix and match thing because anyone who has done this a whole lot has a system.

I think you are correct when you talk about teaching NOT involving pressure. I won't bang you over the head if you don't undertand solving algebraic equations - that won't help. You have to get it first, and you may get it in one day or one month. I have to see what you are. So, teach your dog that he needs to hold the bumper for you, which, it sounds as if you've done.

Once taught, you reinforce with 'pressure'. This means, ask more in obedience when he's holding the bumper so he quits thinking about the bumper and is focused on what you are doing and asking. If he drops it, put it back with some reinforcment (not punishment, but reinforcement). The key isn't saying commands repeatedly or making him frightened, it is to give him more to think about than the thing he has just mastered. Then the hold becomes built in and he is back to thinking about heeling and sitting, etc.

If you have done this in your yardwork, then work quite a bit on the heel and return to your side with the bumper. Put more pressure on here and sit than on the bumper. You can see this work when he begins to just hold the bumper and put his efforts into carrying out the obedience commands you've given him. That's when you know you can move on to tossing the bumper and having him honor the obedience work you've been doing and return to heel with the bumper. It isn't that hard if you emphasize his obedience response. Once you have this comfortably down, then move on to ear pinch and all that. Otherwise it is way out of context. Force isn't a big deal here, it is timing and your awareness of the dog. Quit thinking about pressure, think about communication. Watch for the small things instead of 'expecting' them. Change your thinking and this will begin to work for you both, I promise!

Thanks Julie, I can see now that I am trying to push way to far to fast. When he held I thought ok lets move on, but I didnt follow it up with the other work, I just started to move ahead with FF. I will slow it down and we will work on the hold till all is in place. I am not blaming the dog, I just couldnt get it through MY head why some things with hold went really fast and easy and we went backwards 3 steps. The part of reading the dog is very tough for me, not that I cant do it, but more of I dont take the time to really do it all the time. I am learning more and more that my attitude has alot more to do with what we accomplish then I ever thought in the past.

RR, your 'reading the dog' comment is a really common one - you see it on here all the time. I wish I could alter how people think about that concept. I don't know if you're married or not, but if you were and had been for a long time, a couple of decades let's say.... you walk in the door one day and your wife is standing there facing you. Already you know something is up. How? Because every time you've come home and she was waiting for you that way, it was because she was upset or unhappy about something. You knew from history, that this would mean one of several things and you would change your behavior at that instant. However, as a newlywed, you'd walk into your house to find your wife standing there facing you, and you would assume things the way you wanted them, wouldn't you? If you were in a good mood and happy to see her, you'd say "Hi Honey, how was your day?" You would have no idea trouble was looming. Was this because you couldn't 'read your wife' or because you didn't even try, you just assumed things were the way you were feeling at that moment?

Man, it is no different with dogs. What could that uninformed newlywed do to prevent problems? Instead of assuming anything about his wife, he could just ask. (Now I know men don't do this much, but this is just an illustrative example, so stay with me here) Instead of carrying your own mood into the house, just go in and find her and look at her face, her body language and anything else meaningful and FIND OUT how she's doing. It doesn't take ten years of marriage necessarily, it takes the energy and effort to actually want to know and do what it takes to find out. So do the same thing when training a dog anything. LOOK at them instead of looking for what you expect or want.

In obedience and hold, does your dog resist first? You can guess this means he's a jerk and you need to show him who is boss, but I'll say I have never seen that dog yet in all my years. Dogs aren't jerks, they either don't get what we are asking or don't get the process of learning. Instead of assuming evil intentions, assume that what you see is what is - the dog doesn't understand. Then slow down, break it into tiny pieces and wait until you see the dog show it is at least understanding that you are asking something - that's the first and critical step. If someone told you this dog you are training is the most talented, gifted animal on the planet - you would approach training differently. You would figure you weren't communicating appropriately and you'd work to find a better way. YOu would watch the animal to see how you were doing, how effective you were. When you assume the dog is a numbskull then you are alleviated of responsibility. YOU are everything in this training process. Enjoy that, and keep your eyes open. Makes an unbelievable difference.

Married 25 years, I dont need to even get to the house, I know 10 miles from home when there is a disturbance in the force. I am taking this all in and to be honest I should be having more fun than work when training. I have looked back at the way I have been approaching this and Im gonna make some changes. I will let you know a little down the road how things work out. Thank you for all the insight.

Well for what it's worth, ff is not fun. Not for trainer or dog. Hope what you get after is much more fun. It is the foundation that begins the advanced training. If that is where you want to go. Good luck, keep moving forward , it does take time to build a smack down gundog.

Just an update, we are making progress. FJR I wasnt worried about using pressure just when and how. I can get over anxious and didnt want to get heavy handed. He is responding better now that we slowed down and just stay with hold. I thought he had it down but when it came to it, not all was understood. This is the first issue I have had with the dog so I guess I was expecting him to grasp on as fast as everything else. My Fault. I also think I was trying to look at too many models of who does what. Thanks to all for the help and advise. On the other note I wasnt afraid of anything growing up EXCEPT the old man, so I know what you are saying. Have a 23 yr boy and a 14 yr girl.

Thanks to all who responded, FF is over, tested and complete. Holds nicely and I see no issues at this point. Im not quite sure where to go from here, but things are alot more fun. It was like someone turned a switch and wham everything fell together. I changed the way I was aproaching it and the attitude I had when things didnt go right. The only drops we have are when he is runniing back on the retrieve, with the bigger dummies. He will stop and pick it back up. Went through fetch no fetch, walking fetch and I can walk him at heal and he will fetch a dummy laying there that he didnt see thrown. Thanks for your time.

Posted By rugerred on 01 Jul 2010 07:12 PM
Thanks to all who responded, FF is over, tested and complete. Holds nicely and I see no issues at this point. Im not quite sure where to go from here, but things are alot more fun. It was like someone turned a switch and wham everything fell together. I changed the way I was aproaching it and the attitude I had when things didnt go right. The only drops we have are when he is runniing back on the retrieve, with the bigger dummies. He will stop and pick it back up. Went through fetch no fetch, walking fetch and I can walk him at heal and he will fetch a dummy laying there that he didnt see thrown. Thanks for your time.

GOOD DEAL, As to where to go from here ? Where do you want to go ?

I like to end walking fetch with interchanging birds and bumpers on the ground. Walking past a bird then being asked to pick up a bumper instead is a big test.

I have done some bumper/bird work and although he much prefers the birds, he will do it.  He passes that test but wants to grab the real one every time, after one correction he his back on track but will try to sneak a peek at the bird.  Paco,  I have done a little blind work and some pile work nothing to extensive on eithier.  He has had birds shot over him when he was young but this is his first real season, so I am kinda thinking of seeing what develops and work heavy what is lacking.  Would like to do some casting but I think he may be a little young for that.  Any suggestions?  He is 9 mos next week.

but wants to grab the real one every time, after one correction he his back on track but will try to sneak a peek at the bird.

That is good. He doesn't have to like it, he just has to do it.

He is not to young for casting. I don't know what training program you are using (I like Lardy for this) but the natural next step out of ff would be running marks and pile work. My dogs have been exposed to three handed casting (baseball) as soon as they are focused on me and want to play that no pressure fun casting game in the back yard - as pups. Again that is not age dependent it is dog focus dependent and has had OB so he will sit and come.

I know people get hammered a lot on here about what training program you are using but it is very important to follow a program at this point as you are putting down the foundation of advanced retriever training.

Ive been reading and using Julies book and have some smart works dvd's.

From the standpoint of an amateure - I like Lardy. The "Articles" are a great drafted out guide. On dog #3 I decided that since so many people liked Graham, I would buy them and check it out. Lardy seemed structured in a way that was easier for me to understand, laid out in a process table. I will say that when a dog got "stuck" on something and I needed an alternate way to show a concept/stage, Graham was a great resource.  Smartworks is a good resource.