Not much difference between de-chase and STF.......

STF to me, means stop to flush not sit to flush...... I can't help it, besides that's splitten hairs and it doesn't matter. Either way if the dog does indeed STF, she's not chasing..........besides that's not the issue, she needs to figure out to handle birds when they're on the ground, not in the air.

My advice would be to work her alone, get her on as many wild birds as you can and she'll work it out. If she's stoppping at 35-40 yards out, could be a couple of things. Either she's real cautious and just locking up or she's stopping at first scent. The over cautious can be a problem, they point all the time and never pin down the birds. Locking up on first scent is a good thing and if so she's moving in cuz she smelled them but can't pin point them.

That comes with experience. I'd encourage you to let it deveop, don't put a time table on it, or worry about the outcome. It'll worik it's way out one way or the other....Either way if you let her develop, at her speeed, you'll end up with a bird dog.

Whoa training's not a bad thing, use it wisely. Also take a look at the West/Gibbons method. I'm sure Jere will chime in.

Posted By Julie on 01 Apr 2010 03:56 PM
TS, you say in your original post: "but she is only holding for 10-20 seconds and then she will bust the bird." She goes after the bird and produces it. That's where your problem begins and what Doc is referring to. Dechasing as I use the term, knowing it can many different things to different people, is that you remove the desire to produce the bird because if you do, and it flies, there's nothing for the dog. They don't have to sit, they aren't told anything. They just can't go after the bird. This quickly teaches a dog to stop producing a bird because it ends all the fun. If, on the other hand you have a dog sit or stop when a bird flushes (why would you do this if it is already motionless and a pointing dog should be?) then you are allowing the bird busting behavior and enhancing it by only requiring the dog sit when the bird goes into the air.

I'm confused reading that. I'll rephrase, when a dog establishes a confident, consistent point, they can then learn that when left alone and not whoa'd or otherwise controlled - that if they move to get the bird and it flies, they can initiate no chase. Sit doesn't fit in anywhere. When they loose the chase initiation, they loose the bird busting. I do it on every dog. There are no downsides, there is no whoa and they are very easy to steady to the shot. But, they can still reposition because they aren't whoa'd and they are maintaining knowledge of the bird. It isn't steady to flush, shot or anything else, but it sure makes those things easy...

When they loose the chase initiation, they loose the bird busting. I do it on every dog. There are no downsides, there is no whoa and they are very easy to steady to the shot. But, they can still reposition because they aren't whoa'd and they are maintaining knowledge of the bird. It isn't steady to flush, shot or anything else, but it sure makes those things easy...

Posted By team sky on 01 Apr 2010 05:33 PM
Thanks for your help!!!

For the most part I have finished her myself. However, now that she is starting to exhibit her natural point I really want to encourage her to develop it. Again, thank you for the help and suggestions! The "book" (your book?) should be here tomorrow so I will follow your process for dechasing her. As soon as I dechase her I should have the complete pointing retriever, Handling to marks out to 300 yds., running blinds, etc., etc., oh and POINTING BIRDS.

Posted By Jere on 03 Apr 2010 03:22 PM

Posted By team sky on 01 Apr 2010 05:33 PM
Thanks for your help!!!

For the most part I have finished her myself. However, now that she is starting to exhibit her natural point I really want to encourage her to develop it. Again, thank you for the help and suggestions! The "book" (your book?) should be here tomorrow so I will follow your process for dechasing her. As soon as I dechase her I should have the complete pointing retriever, Handling to marks out to 300 yds., running blinds, etc., etc., oh and POINTING BIRDS.

Your dog IS pointing.

Pointing is a natural behavior.

She is NOT steady.

Steadiness is a trained behavior (in most dogs).

I have described one method to finish the dog here:
http://www.pointinglabforum.com/build/objects/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1614

I'd send a .pdf copy to your email address if you PM me.

There is a website devoted to this process where successful amateurs and several professionals are available to answer questions and materials are posted to the "Files" section at:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pointingdogs

Jere

Posted By Julie on 01 Apr 2010 03:56 PM 
Dechasing as I use the term, knowing it can many different things to different people, is that you remove the desire to produce the bird because if you do, and it flies, there's nothing for the dog. They don't have to sit, they aren't told anything. They just can't go after the bird. This quickly teaches a dog to stop producing a bird because it ends all the fun. If, on the other hand you have a dog sit or stop when a bird flushes (why would you do this if it is already motionless and a pointing dog should be?) then you are allowing the bird busting behavior and enhancing it by only requiring the dog sit when the bird goes into the air.

I'm confused reading that. I'll rephrase, when a dog establishes a confident, consistent point, they can then learn that when left alone and not whoa'd or otherwise controlled - that if they move to get the bird and it flies, they can initiate no chase. Sit doesn't fit in anywhere. When they loose the chase initiation, they loose the bird busting. I do it on every dog. There are no downsides, there is no whoa and they are very easy to steady to the shot. But, they can still reposition because they aren't whoa'd and they are maintaining knowledge of the bird. It isn't steady to flush, shot or anything else, but it sure makes those things easy...

Exactly what I was referring to (Julie just does it soooo much better).
Here's a pic of Tucker (9.5 months old at the time) from a couple years ago (at a Julie Seminar we had out here).
Tucker had been "dechased" on only two birds (just a few minutes before). He had been pointing too close and was frequently busting birds. He had been trained to be Steady to Flush/Shot/Fall. We have never done Whoa training.
 Julie  was talking to the crowd (you can see the gunners & Julie in hunter orange).  A Chukar had escaped and when Tucker caught scent, he went on this point. I had Tucker at heel, and were walking back to the gallery when he caught scent, so it was a completely spontaneous point (we weren't even 'hunting').......... Solid point (no Whoa or any other command) -- even with all the 'going's on distractions' and all the people in Julie's gallery. 
As you can see from his head position, the bird was 10 to 12 yards in front of him.   He has been ultra-solid ever since.  He held this point a number of minutes -- gave me time to go back to the rig, get the camera and return to the area (you can see how far the vehicles were from the training area).
De-chasing is da bomb !





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