Gary how do you handle a refusal when on the ground say during walking fetch?

 

I agree praise and a happy dog goes a long ways in team work training.  However, too much praise is worse than too little. You start giving too much praise while training and the dog will start messing around and loose focus. A good fair structured workout with an adda boy once in a while is all that’s needed. As far as patting on the head, ugh, dogs  don’t want you messing around with their head or their face. A pat on the shoulder with a good boy for a job well done is plenty. Even then a dog may see that as a release and start going goofy on you. Just like with training, praise should be consistent….. I’ve never used treats and never will…..dog will always be on the lookout for a handout.

 

 

Posted By OD on 25 Feb 2010 09:49 AM
Jere,

You bring up a very good point about praise. ... That said it is critical to know when, why and how to use it. If you dont it can become meaningless. ...

Off to train a pile of hounds.

Gary

Yes, and worse yet it can result in "unintended consequences" whereby some unwanted behavior is rewarded and strengthened. As FJR said - a simple "data boy", stroke on the back (which I mention frequently when writing about "Manners on Birds") or pat on the head (some dogs) - properly timed; works wonders. Going on and on and on with pats, "good girls" etc. tends to reinforce (another word for "reward" as I've used it earlier) some extraneous and usually unwanted behavior which the dog may exhibit after receiving the first "praise." Poorly timed praise can be very counter-productive. Example: Dog returning from a retrieve may slow down for some reason as it approaches the trainer. Newbie trainer thinks dog is apprehensive (and it may well be - but that's a different issue) and attempt to comfort or calm the dog with a few ill conceived "good dogs." The result is the "slowing down" is "rewarded" and may well become an even larger issue in the future. This can escalate into a real mess! One has to be careful with all this stuff.

Less is more, but none is still none.

Randy, You're right, some dogs are headshy; but I do pat dogs that accept it well on the head as praise when it is the more convenience hand contact "praise" and I use a tap on the head as a release.

I have used food rewards and my dogs are not always on the lookout for a treat. Again: One has to be careful with all this stuff.

What are your thoughts on training a pointing dog to sit? I figure the troubles so many folks have with it is rooted in the way they teach/train sit and the level and way they apply pressure in steadying the dograther than in the act itself. A PL should be trained to sit on command, eh?

Another thing that might be mentioned in regard to "rewards" would be the fact that stuff like food, ear rubs, and so forth - things the dog finds pleasurable essentially from birth should be considered "primary" or "intrinsic" rewards. No training or experience is necessary for them to have the desired effect when used as a "reward." OTOH, words such a "good dog" are initially meaningless to the dog and it must learn about them before they function as a reward. This is partially the basis for "clicker training."

Jere

Jere, I get what you mean. I too am one of those that need to see or try something to get it. I like to read about the subject and then get a visual on it. Thanks for the links I will check them out. For reward I give him a pat on the chest. Noone else does it to him and he doesnt turn his head.

Posted By rugerred on 25 Feb 2010 08:26 PM
Jere, I get what you mean. I too am one of those that need to see or try something to get it. I like to read about the subject and then get a visual on it. Thanks for the links I will check them out. For reward I give him a pat on the chest. Noone else does it to him and he doesnt turn his head.

I think you're talking about the links FJR gave. I'm a big fan of Lardy but think there are differences one should choose if one is training a pointing dog... If you can't hack the cost of the videos - at least try hard to muster $20 for his reprints - vol 1. to get a good outline. You may find the videos on ebay if you check regularly. FWIW, the training necessary to get to competitive level retriever work may exceed what one needs for a solid hunting dog, IMO. have fun with your pup. Jere

Hey Jere,

 

Absolutely a PL needs to be trained to sit on command including remote sit. Early on I never used sit with the pointers, just whoa, down or stay. The last few especially a couple that made it in the house were taught sit. So many of the pointer crowd think sit will lead to a dog sitting after flush or sitting if the bird has left. I never experience that problem when I started using sit.

 

I give Pi plenty of neck/ear and back of the head rubs and good girl when she’s in the house, riding shotgun or when the workout or hunting session is over. Treats when I leave or when we go to bed. It doesn’t bother her when I leave, cuz she knows she’s getting a treat. She’s also good when left alone, now if I forget the treat and she might just drag my tennis shoes outside. J

 

The touching feely stuff while they’re working and too much praise is when they can fall apart. You tell your dog to sit, they do and you give em a pat on the head or touch them. Most will start falling apart and trying to get closer and want more affection. Sit em, give em a pat on the shoulder and good girl and if they even start to get squirrely hit em with sit again. Pi’s a perpetual whiner when things get slow in the blind. She’ll settle down some if I give her a “quite” in a low voice. Touch her and it gets worse or she starts wanting to move around.

 

Same deal if they’re on point, you start giving them praise verbal or a touch and they’ll loose all intensity and liable to start creeping or an all out flush. Dogs do want you to touch them while working but only as an escape IMO and most will take advantage of that situation and then you’ve got yourself a setback. When the work is done to satisfaction for the handler and the dog is the time for adda boys.

 

I also use a tap on the head to release but that’s a whole lot different than a pat on the head for praise:

 

Are you starting to see the migration north yet?

 

I was taught the toe hitch by a trainer on the Cimarron Grass lands many moons ago and used it on a few pointers that weren’t natural retrievers. I can see a real advantage for the guy training a bunch of dogs and the table is nice to check em over, stroke em and style up on whoa. I used the ear pitch with Pi, it was a struggle and took a while, she was pretty darn stubborn.

 

Still wondering how you handle a refusal during a walking fetch, when FF was done with the toe hitch??

Still wondering how you handle a refusal during a walking fetch, when FF was done with the toe hitch??

The very few dogs I have trained with the toe hitch never have had a refusal except one...with her we put her back on the table for another week and she got right...her problem was, IMO she was never finished...usually FF with the toe for 30 days...3 times a day, and she was on the groung in two weeks......

The trainer that showed me the toe hitch, would always leave a short string around the ankle of the dog once they come off the table..Kinda like a dummy electric collar..just a tug or two at heel lets the dog know whats up.

Thanks FJR, now that you mention that I remember the trainer on the grass lands leaving a piece of string on the dog after the table. They went back on the chain gang to watch while the next dog was worked.

Randy, I would say during walking fetch the pressure has alrady been changed to collar pressure, setting the dog up for force to pile.

Posted By Trout Bum on 26 Feb 2010 07:49 AM

Hey Jere,

 

Absolutely a PL needs to be trained to sit on command including remote sit. Early on I never used sit with the pointers, just whoa, down or stay. The last few especially a couple that made it in the house were taught sit. So many of the pointer crowd think sit will lead to a dog sitting after flush or sitting if the bird has left. I never experience that problem when I started using sit.

...

Same deal if they’re on point, you start giving them praise verbal or a touch and they’ll loose all intensity and liable to start creeping or an all out flush. Dogs do want you to touch them while working but only as an escape IMO and most will take advantage of that situation and then you’ve got yourself a setback. When the work is done to satisfaction for the handler and the dog is the time for adda boys.

 

...

 

Are you starting to see the migration north yet?

 

...

Hi Randy,

The "problem" I was thinking of was the dog sitting when pressure was applied during training for steadiness on birds. I think that is traceable to the way the sit was trained and/or the amount of pressure applied.

I agree - at least 100%. As you know I don't advise any verbal with the dog on point.

Not yet far as I can see. We had a good spell of above freezing weather. The top two or three layers of ice on the driveway disappeared along with snow under the trees in most of the forest. Snow in the open is still hip deep but two nights in the 20s have hardened it so we can walk on top anywhere. Had a skiff of snow today and a fair breeze which made it feel pretty cool. More snow is in the forecast but I don't hold much stock in the weather service up here. Spring won't be here for another six weeks at least or more I expect. There hasn't been enough snow up high this winter to chase any ptarmigan down but the spruce grouse seemed to think spring was here during that warm spell. We saw three one morning last week - two appeared to be a pair in a traditional mating area.

How about you?

Jere

I don't know if teaching sit or not would make that much difference, maybe. It is an escape for sure, too much pressure and any dog is liable to sit on point. I've never seen it happen on wild birds, only pennies and when in a controlled situation....

Spotted a small flock of mourning doves a few days ago near the house and paired up mallards on a regular basis. There were more ducks on the Platte two weeks ago than all of December and January. They were on their way back. The majority of waterfowl never made it this far south, same deal as last year. Quite a few snows as well, all heading north though the majority of them are still south of us. Big push could come any day now…..I sure love the sounds of the cranes and you can hear them coming for miles.

We had very little snow mid-Dec through mid-Feb. We spent a whole bunch of blue bird days, getting sunburned, swatting bugs, wondering where all the ducks were and if it would snow again before the season closed. Still nice to be out there taking in all the gifts from mother nature, observing the wildlife and time to think about improvements to the habit.

Dark geese closed on 2/15 and sure enough, the perfect storm moves in on 2/18. It snows for 5 days. Leaving maybe 5 or 6 inches on the ground, clouds on the ground and ducks all over the place...a couple of other fronts this week, will be hitting the streams soon. 

Say Hi to Sandy for me.

TB,

My training process is much different than most trainers both PL and pointers. The dogs have taught me more on how to approach things than anyone else. They are communicating to us all the time we are around them and especially when we are working with them. I have learned to not get wrapped up in what others say can and cannot be done. The dogs will tell you everything you need to know if you learn how read and communicate with them.

My pointers retrieve like retrievers. They are taught to sit at a young age as well as whoa. Not an issue. Traditional pointer guys will tell you big problems. Has never been the case for me and that is with most of the continental breeds. GSP's , EP's, setters, wirehairs, brits, on and on. My GSP does marks exactly the same way my MH and 4X GMPR retrievers do. He will do pile work as well as any lab. Nobody has told him he shouldn't or cant do the work. As I said I dont get wrapped up in what others say they cant do. That same GSP will go on point and back as well as any FC or MH pointer out there. There are several people who post here that have seen him. He will be running blinds as well just need to put the time in with him teaching him. A good dog is a good dog. Knowing how to communicate with a dog is not bred specific.

As far as the toe hitch when I come off the table my dogs are collar conditioned and have already worked piles even before they hit the ground. the transitions to the ground is usually a matter of minutes. They completely understand the fetch concept as well as what pressure is and how to deal with it.

As far as the praise goes if you saw me work my dogs you would probably see things you have not seen before. There is a right time to praise and time to correct. If you read your dog well you will never have an issue with either one. Too much praise becomes meaningless if you dont understand the when, where, how and why. In fact you can actually become a nag if your not paying attention. Both with commands and praise. Praise is used primarily to acknowledge effort. It is also important for establishing a success cycle which if done right will build confidence and do amazing things for their attitude. My dogs work with me because they want to. They respect me and love to be challenge. They learn they can always work through anything that is thrown at them.

You need to make it black and white when it is time to go to work. I almost never touch a dog during training. Big dogs anyway. All my praise is verbal during training. I dont have any issues with screwing around because they have been taught and developed a good work ethic. There is no question about work time and play time. That said it is one of the biggest problems I help people deal with. For them they have created too much gray area in the dogs mind. Dogs dont deal with gray area very well!

Hope This helps

Gary

PRG

Posted By OD on 28 Feb 2010 02:44 AM
TB,

1. They [dogs]are communicating to us all the time we are around them and especially when we are working with them. I have learned to not get wrapped up in what others say can and cannot be done. The dogs will tell you everything you need to know if you learn how read and communicate with them.

2. My pointers retrieve like retrievers. They are taught to sit at a young age as well as whoa. Not an issue. Traditional pointer guys will tell you big problems. Has never been the case for me and that is with most of the continental breeds. GSP's , EP's, setters, wirehairs, brits, on and on. My GSP does marks exactly the same way my MH and 4X GMPR retrievers do. He will do pile work as well as any lab. ... He will be running blinds as well just need to put the time in with him teaching him. A good dog is a good dog. Knowing how to communicate with a dog is not bred specific.

Hope This helps

Gary

PRG

Gary, One of the all-time great pointer trainers said his father told him, after watching him work dogs for a while, something like this: If what you're doing isn't working, for heaven's sake, try something else! Fits with what you say in 1. above and will work well for the new guy who hasn't yet learned to speak "dog."

This is a bit away from the subject but ...

What differences have you noted between Labs and the several V-dogs with respect to retrieving work - especially blinds and multiple marks? Do they seem to have any limitations? Does it take them longer or shorter periods to "get" some concepts?

jere

Jere,

One thing I noticed , and honestly I am surprised, is that the V-dogs especially GSP's seem to pick up obedience skills very quickly. Something in the way they are wired. Everyone I have trained that has had good breeding has been that way. At a level that seems to take other breeds longer.

I am convinced that the environment a pup grows up in has a huge influence on their attitudes about retrieving and many other things they will learn.. For example my GSP and EP have been exposed to dogs all around them retrieving since they were eight weeks old. Nothing has influenced them to not retrieve. I think they have had more opportunities to do those sort of things being in the environment they are in around me. I suspect many other pointing dogs would also be influenced similarly.

Depending on the individual dog you can get the same intensity and focus on marks as you will on upland birds. You can have a significant influence on that by what you do or don't do. I don't make any assumptions about a dog based on the breed. I think it is a mistake. Well bred ,intelligent dogs, are trainable. We will never realize what they are capable of doing unless we give them opportunities to learn.

One interesting thing is that the pointers tend to use their nose first and then sight second to locate marks. They tend to move out hunting as opposed to going right to the area of the fall and then hunting. That said you can teach them to work more like a retriever. WHich is mark the fall and then put your nose down to find it. They are just wired differently. That said retrievers don't come out of the box with perfect built in range finders and nail marks. It takes training to teach and polish up those skills.

The GSP's in my experience are at the top of the V-dog chain. They are the equivalent of the labs in the retriever world. They dominate in most events they run in. Mine has no problem counting to two or three and will run piles and the T just like a lab with a lot of drive. Breeding does make a difference. A good dog is a good dog. If I have time this year to work with him I plan on getting a HRC seasoned title. I need to do water force with him in order to run water blinds. I'll bet a box of shells that he can do it. It is not because I am wonder trainer. It is because he is a good dog with a great attitude about work and training, and nobody has told him he should not be doing what he is doing. I think we should approach all our dogs and training with them that way. Let them decide what they can do.

I think many of the PL people are missing some valuable learning experiences not hanging out with the really good pointer trainers. Especially the things that are really not breed specific but are task specific tools that anyone can apply to a dog doing a specific task. Regardless of the breed. There are more similarities between dogs than differences. Would also be nice to see the Us vs. Them mentality fade away! It is just nonsense. Why not take the best practices and apply them regardless of where they come from?

Gary

I nominate Gary for the position of Pointing Labrador ambassador to all other pointing breed owners and trainers. All those in favor of this rail roading signify by I.

Take a look at Evan Grahams videos on force fetch. He uses the ear pinch and E collar no table needed. You can add the toe hitch for extra measure but it generally is not needed. Evan's apprach is very methodical and very low stress approach to FF and maintains the dogs confidence. Evan's video also demonstrate how to transition FF to a walking FF and force to pile which are essential to basic retriever training.

Tater which video are you talking about specificly?