I am said to be old school on my FF, but maybe not ?  How many trainers out there still use the toe hitch during FF? If not, why go to ear pinch?  I have not tried the ear...

I have heard of the toe hitch before but never realy new what it is.  Can you explain?

The toe hitch does the same thing as the ear pinch...its a rope that is slip knotted around the ankle, then around the toe..after its looped around the toe it goes to the ground...the trainer then loops it around his foot to apply presure to the toe of the dog......

Its just an old school presure.

I've seen it used but not used it myself. It is "hard" to use with the dog on the ground and especially when not in a formal FF training venue. That said, it appeared very effective. Because only a small annoyance on the toe nerve prompts the dog to reach for the annoyance source with its mouth open, it seem VERY easy to put the training buck into the open mouth and simultaneously release the string. The dog quickly got the idea that taking the buck in its mouth resulted in overcoming the pressure (or however one prefers to describe this process It is a low pressure and fair approach to FF, IMO.

Jere

Are there any pics or vids of the process? I will be FF in about 2 months.

Check out Butch Goodwin's program "Retrievers From the Inside Out".

Also, alot of guys start with the toe hitch and transition to the ear as "Jere" mentioned...The toe is hard to use on the ground....The few dogs that I have trained by the toe hitch, never realy needed it"transit to the ear", but I have had to go back to the table, as sort of a reminder. Kinda like using the word "fetch" during FF and transition to "fetch back" and then the single "back" once on the ground...

I am planning on using the ear pinch ( I dont have a table). I like to see or hear differrent trainiing methods.

Don't really have to have a formal training table. Just need to get the dog up onto something like a picnic table. As long as the dog doesn't get wild on you and responds well to the toe hitch pressure (which does not to be very great) it should work well. Even if the dog needs to be restrained by the neck as some do on tables, that could easily be improvised. In that regard it is not all that different from ear pinch - some dogs get wild with that too - and need to be restrained.

Jere

Jere, I never thought about a picinic table. The one fear I have is this dog is a softy and his feelings get hurt when he doesnt understand the correction. I am moving pretty slow with some things to make sure he understands. When he doesnt understand you can see it in his eyes the way he looks at you. (sorry didnt mean to steal the thread)

The toe hitch may be right up his alley if he is soft....I don't think its as personal as the ear pinch either...maybe you get lucky and he toughens-up as he ages...but from my experience the softer the dog the harder they are to train...if he is that soft you may want to wait till he is older for FF

I agree with FJR on the toe hitch here. You may not have to do much pulling to get the desired response.

A little clarification or emphasis in case there is some confusion: FF is a "proofing" process, not a primary training process. In FF neither the ear pinch nor the toe hitch is a correction. What we're doing is making the dog uncomfortable (to a lesser or greater degree as the situation and progress demands), getting the dog to comply with a command then rewarding the proper behavior by immediately removing the discomfort (pressure). The dog learns it can escape from (turn off) or avoid the discomfort (pressure) entirely by complying with the command. Many dogs may be smart enough to learn quickly that they can avoid the pressure by rapid compliance. But such a dog may not be fully FF'd until it has been "escaped." To be fair to the dog, it is appropriate to teach the dog what the proper response to the command is before using the force approach to "proof" the training. Do this by other means which generally would involve direct reinforcement with rewards such as praise or even (dare I say it) food treats.

Jere

Old school? I have no idea but I can without question tell you it is the most effective way to teach a concept and apply pressure during force fetch for me. Many advantages if done right. They are locked in a stationary place, they have no choice but to comply which is communicated to them in terms of black and white. I dont believe they relate the pressure to you directly. Which I think can be an issue with the ear pinch. I dont want a dog to relate anything bad to me if possible. That directly affects their attitude about working and specifically with me. You can correct much quicker which means teaching the concept most efficiently. My experience has shown they (get it ) much quicker.

All the dogs are picking up off the table moving forward,doing the and walk with a bumper, going to piles left and right, are collar conditioned and have the basic concept of a cast left and right by the time we come off the table. Within a day or two they have completely transition to the ground. After eight years of training client dogs with the ear pinch I have gone to the toe hitch for the past four. I will never go back. I can be much farther along and in a shorter amount of time because of the how I implemented this into my training process. Most importantly is not how fast but how completely they learn the concept. I could go on and on.

If I could post pictures I would of the FF table and dogs working on it. Have asked for solutions for posting photos to the site admin and others several times with no response. Oh well.

Off to train!

Gary

Well said...
Be careful on praise to.
The girl I am ff now had a fine line on praise when she was a pup(6 months old)...seems she only needed a "data girl" a few times a day..then she would quit every thing...
I think I was giving her to much verbal praise to start, when I should have started with a couple of pats on the head for a reward..you just never know what to do...she was so hard to get retrieving as a pup, that when she finally did it, I was like..Finally!.."good girl!" I guess it was my fault as much as hers. Check the link for table pictures, and more on the toe hitch.
http://www.northernflight.com/articles.htm.

This dog is smart, it takes some commands very well and gets them honed quick but others it seems to get a little confused about what I want. Kinda like in Julies book I get the "dad Im trying" look. The command I am talking about is stay or to remain in sit till another command is given. Thats what kind of has me leary of FF. Jere I dont understand what you mean, could you put that in redneck terms please. This dog is always trying to please, I just think I may be pushing to hard, too much, too fast for his age. I am warming up to the toe hitch idea when the time comes though.

PS:  That is a great link FJR.

I don't know how far you are willing to go, as far as training..but if you have a dog that is that good..do yourself and the dog a favor, and take him to a trainer...you will never regret it!...I would teach him the basic obedience, and let the trainer do the FF...most will do it for a flat rate of 4 to 5....its alot easier to do it right than fix him once he is wrong. Also he looks pretty young for FF, and needs a few months IMO...Good luck!

Posted By FJR on 24 Feb 2010 05:44 PM
I don't know how far you are willing to go, as far as training..but if you have a dog that is that good..do yourself and the dog a favor, and take him to a trainer...you will never regret it!...I would teach him the basic obedience, and let the trainer do the FF...most will do it for a flat rate of 4 to 5....its alot easier to do it right than fix him once he is wrong. Also he looks pretty young for FF, and needs a few months IMO...Good luck!

I have thought about taking him to a trainer.  There are two factors driving this decision (1) I took a 15% pay cut and the wife lost her job.  Thus the disposable income is not there at this time.  (2) I do enjoy working with the dogs and have trained my other flushing labs, (just not to the level I would like this dog to reach) and I work 3 on 4 off 4 on 3 off  twelve hour days so I do have some time.  I just need as much if not more training than the dog to reach the level of dog I hope this one to be.  I agree that he is to young for FF but I am trying to learn as much as I can ahead of time.  I didnt know trainers would take them just for that.  It may be an option and your right about fixing things later.  Thats why I ask some stupid questions once and awhile.

Sorry to hear about the pay cut and job loss, seems everyone is in the same boat!

If you are like me, I could read a hundred books and not get it, but show me once and its in there....check out Mike Lardy training video, its a little pricy, but for a 150.00 its a all you need for retrieving, and when your finished with it, sell it on ebay for 125.00
http://www.totalretriever.com/training.htm
Another Idea is check on http://www.retrievertraining.net/ website, and hook up with a guy close, for training partner....or ask us dummy's on here, and we will help as much as we can...some good people here!

Posted By rugerred on 24 Feb 2010 04:32 PM
... Jere I dont understand what you mean, could you put that in redneck terms please. ...

PS:  That is a great link FJR.

I was trying for a redneck version when I wrote what I wrote!

Maybe I'll try something else "later."

In the meantime, try re-reading what I wrote - several times - and think about this: "Rewards" follow a "good job." The rewarded dog is more likely to repeat a "good job" the next time around. "Corrections" follow a "bad job." The corrected dog is less likely to repeat a "bad job" the next time around. Making the dog more "comfortable" by removing an ear pinch or toe hitch is a "reward" just as giving it a treat under the same circumstances would be. Though there is more to it, these two - rewarding and correcting - are a big part of "training" a dog.

Lights may come on.

Jere

To add pictures to a post:

I assume the picture you want to put into your post is on your computer somewhere and you know where it is.

Use the "edit," "quote," or "reply" button at the top right of the post you want to edit (has to be one you posted) or reply to; or the "Add Reply" button on the left side below the last post in a thread to get to the post input page. Do Not use the "quick Reply panel.

After this page loads,and you are ready to add your picture, scroll to the very bottom and single click on the left facing arrow to the right opposite Attachments. Click on "Browse..." which appears at the right side of an empty data panel. A "Choose File" panel will be displayed which allows you to navigate anywhere on your computer to locate the file you want to include. Do this and when you find it single click on it's file name to highlight it. Then single click "Open" at the bottom right. The file name will be placed in the above mentioned data panel. Single click on "Upload" (to the right of "Open" and you should be done.

OOOOPS!!!! Didn't work - There must be another problem with the BB software.

Jere,

You bring up a very good point about praise. Stated another way a good attitude will do more for learning and progress than anything else including methods. I praise a great deal even with my finished dogs. They love it and I have yet to see a dog that wont respond positively to it. That said it is critical to know when, why and how to use it. If you dont it can become meaningless. I have dogs that cant wait to get to the force fetch table. Why ? Because I have established a success cycle with them. They thrive on working and learning because they know they can get the job done and will be praised for the effort along the way. A sign I like to see is holding a choke chain out in front of them and they will move forward and put their head in it. It is nothing I teach them directly but they cant wait to train because they know good things are going to happen.

The most important thing a trainer or handler can do is learn how to communicate with their dog. The way they do! Praise is a very important part of this. Timing of when you do it and how you do it are also important. Learn who to do this well and it will affect your dog in a good way. I see too many people that just want to connect the dots and become a painter. There is a difference between a painter and an artist. Become an artist with your dog and you might be surprised what you both can accomplish.

I have tried just about everything to post. Last time I had someone else post them for me. He figured it out some how.

Off to train a pile of hounds.

Gary