The post below is from the shooting sportsman bulletin board (www.shootingsportsman.com)  Anyone with a PL that might be competitive go there, find a post by NLMACE, check his Profile and send an email or PM.  Someone take him up on this if there are any PLs that might compete.  But don't be surprised if the American Field nixes your entry or refuses to record any placement. 

NLMACE wrote:
"Just tell me where you live and I can assure you I can get your PL entered in a FDSB Trial. I know guys that would pay to see a PL that can run at 10 mph for an hour. Get it registered with FDSB (an easy and cheap process) and you are good to go.

Last week we had a non-regular Hunting Dog stake as part of an AKC All-Breed trial that I would have welcomed your entries. "
 
Jere

That is so crazy!!!! I know Neil very well! I've never hunted with him before, but talk to him all of the time, he's in my QU club. Super nice guy, and has some top notch boykins and brittanys.

I'll have to give him a call and put him up to it.

Jay

There are PL's that could compete in AKC hunting dog or gun dog stakes, if AKC recognized them as a pointing dog. American Field shooting dog stakes no way.

Not really a fair comparison kind of like asking a Quarter Horse to race a Thorobred for a mile and half. Or more like asking a Thorobred to race an Arabian for 10 miles.

Pointers and PL are both dear to my heart, comparisons are not really fair though. In a different post someone was bragging about a PL holding point for 47 seconds. I had a Pointer that had a rooster pinned for an hour. Lost the dog and after searching for an hour found her where she originally disappeared locked up tight with wild rooster pinned down. I'm convinced she was there the whole time.

I continually think the "battle" of what kind of dog is better is a shame. PLs are versatile dogs, generalists-to expect them to be experts at ALL of their "jobs" is not realistic, nor is it realistic to expect them to be better at pointing birds than a dog who is a pointing specialist. Trout Bum's horse example is an excellent one. I always thought the idea behind a PL was for a hunter to be able to have ONE dog that could do everything that hunter would need. If there are PLs that can compete against the other breeds and do well-great. But "my dog is better than your dog" is childish. I am sorry that the various clubs won't let anyone compete. Why should they care? They make money on fees regardless of the breed of the dog. It would be great, for me, to be able to train with a NAVHDA club-there is one near me. But, no labs allowed...

I'm a terrible trainer and know I would not survive a lick in the test, but I think my dog can run 10 mph for an hour.  I can drag my fat butt around at 10 mph and she runs with me, so I have seen her do it. 

OK, Randy, anyone that knows; tell us more about AF sponsored trials.

I know AF is some sort of "parent body" like AKC through its Field Dog Stud Book (FDSB). I know there are MANY clubs around the country affiliated with AF/FDSB which sponsor field trials for pointing dogs. The AF lets them operate under its unbrella in exchance for some largess (tithing if you will). Among these are the requirement that participating dogs be registered w/FDSB (nominal cost of $15 unless dog is also AKC registered - then $30) and the event must be advertised in the AF's publication "The American Field." It must also be conducted under rules that include the AF's rules in particular its "Minimum Requirements For Field Trials for ALL Pointing Breeds."

There may or may not be any possibility that some club (probably wouldn't be a breed specific club as many AF affiliated clubs appear to be) might let a PL run but it appears more problematic that AF would record a placement if that miracle should occur.

Tell us about the trials themselves. For instance, just what is a "Walking Shooting Dog Trial?" The judges and gallery are, apparently mounted on horses! Is the handler on horseback also - who is "walking" the handler or his horse? Certainly not the dog (Grin). How big is the course? How long are the braces? Anything else you can think of?

Jere

Jere I will answer your question.
American field walking trials consist of a puppy, derby, and shooting dog stake. Dogs run as brace mates for at least half an hour. The dogs as Derby's are expected to run big and stay to the front. If they find birds they are expected to hold birds until the flush, if they are steady to shot that only increases your chances of placing. Dogs are judged by how they run, and how they look on birds. A dog on birds must be completly staunch with a straight tail. If they go to the ground or have a low head they might be picked up. A labrador has no way to keep up with the range that is expected for the required amount of time, on top of that they would have to show up every pointer or setter at the trial to even think about placing. The judges and gallery are on horseback, the handler must walk. Usually we will run at least a mile section in a half hour through different kinds of terrain. In the shooting dog a dog has to be steady to wing and shot, can not sit while being steady. He is expected to stay between 10 and 2 (like a clock) if he varies to many times he will have to be picked up. A dog on point can not move even one step, or while birds are being flushed. I guess I will put it this way, right now red setters have a hard enough time placing a labrador would be impossible even if it was able to run. If you want to see field trial pointers run come anyone is welcome to come and watch at my place.

My intentions were certainly not to bash or belittle PL's. If it came off that way please except my sincere apologies. I would never intentionally bash PL, I love and admire them. Actually when I saw the pic of the young PL female on point and I was very impressed in her staunch stylish point. With her head held high and her tail held high she looked every bit as stylish as the modern day Pointers and Setters.

I was simply trying to put things in perspective. Even in the shooting dog stakes it can take up to 5 minutes or longer to get to the dog, dismount from your horse, make sure the judges are there with you and then flush the bird. And yes my love for pointers runs deep, I’ve had pointers for 35, 36 years a PL for 4. I always thought I would have at least 1 pointer in my kennel until the day I die. Now I believe I will always have at least 1 PL.

I also do not like the comparisons of one breed over another either. However it comes up from time to time and I will defend the Pointer. I can’t keep quite, Pointers are bar none in a class by themselves. Good bird dogs come in all shapes, sizes and colors. I admire the ones with drive and determination to that extra mile to find game no matter what the breed. I do have breeds I prefer over the others, PL’s and Pointers are at the top of the list.

I would also like PL’s to have the opportunity to run in pointing dog stakes.

Jere, I've never been to a AF walking trial only horseback trials. The only thing different from Oakcreeks post on walking trails and the horseback trial would be the addition of the All Age stakes plus the handler is on horseback as well. Assuming the range in the walking trails would be much shorter as well. Oak omitted your dog must back on sight, same stipulations about creeping, or breaking until released. I'm assuming it would be the same in walking stakes. If your dog does not see the dog on point, he can continue on the course. One judge will stay with the handler whose dog is on point and the other judge will go with the other handler. The gallery has the option of watching either dog.

The other point I would add is in the horse back derby stakes, the dogs are judged on all age potential. If there is a dog that has the race of an all age dog with one find, it would win over a dog with two or three finds and a shooting dog race. Assuming both of the dogs had similar style on point and speed in their race.

I would think some of the smaller clubs would turn their eyes so to speak and let a PL run. FDSB would probably not recognize the win or placement though. Oak is right on about a PL having to really put on a show for a placement above the Pointers or Setters. Not only the red setters have a difficult time you can throw in all the continential breeds as well. I've seen some red setters that could tear up the ground in short order. Probably because they've been bred to the ES and Pointers in earlier years. I also familiar with the uphill battle with red setters, I started out with one that was out of Askew's Carolina Lady (SP?) the only red setter in the AF hall of fame, that I'm aware of.. Didn't think about running her in AF but was competitive with her in AKC, puppy, derby and then gun dog stakes. I did develop a list of judges I wouldn't run under though.

Oakcreek,
Much of what you mention is a matter of training - steadiness, etc.   Neither of mine sit while being steady.  I do expect them to hold birds until I get there and flush - could be several hundred yards away and often it is WAY up a mountain or down in a chasm.  I've never timed any point, it takes as long as it takes - no matter how long - that's just what is necessary for a functional pointing dog. I prefer steady to wing, shot and fall; but find it difficult to hunt and also maintain the later.  I need to work more on that. 

I can see that even a Lab that does cover some decent amount of ground by this walking hunter's standards would have trouble in this AF venue. The standards for straightness of tail and height of head could be a problem.  Personally I like to see the dog point with a posture which exudes expectation of capturing the bird - this means head and shoulders lower, muscles quivering, etc.  Not what is in vogue today in pointy dog circles.  Some of the pictures of pointers and setters I see supposedly on "point" look like a dog stacked for judgement at Westminster.  They don't look like there is or they care if there is an bird within 3 miles.  My dogs point as the choose - sometimes standing tall, sometimes clearly in close contact with a prey they'd love to try and catch before it flies.  Tails all over the place.

But, I do have a question about your post.  You say the dog must stay between 10 and 2; and well to the front; the handler walks; a section is covered in half an hour.  Just how far from the handler might the dog actually work?  Is the typical section course a 640 acre square or 640 acres as wide as 10 - 2 out at the desired range wide by however long it has to be to make a section? How far might the handler have to walk while the dog "works" this section?  Are there typically a large fraction of the planted birds found?  What fraction of a 1 mile x 1 mile section would actually be worked by the dog and how far would the handler "walk?"  Sounds like pretty fast "walking" would be required to cover a square that size in half an hour. About 8 miles an hour if the dog works 220 yards each side of the centerline at 440 yards from the handler (10 - 2).  I think my questions cover the issues.

I would hope as time progresses there will be more pointy dog venues open to PLs where these dogs can show their capabilities without being laughed out of the county.  I am sure there are some PLs that would be able to work in some of these now.  AF does not appear to be one - the "style" criteria would kill most of them from the get go for sure.

Hey, if PL folks don't start thinking about this stuff, there will not be any progress beyond the picture conjured in most folks minds when we say PL - fat, out of shape blob waddling along within gunshot distance of the hunter and stopping from time to time before flushing a bird.  Doing a fine retrieve but giving out after an hour or so and plodding along behind the hunter for the rest of the hunt.  I KNOW that picture is WRONG at least in some cases but it can't be dispelled without showing disbelievers it is wrong. 

I was interested, though, when Neil commented that a dog that could run 10 mph for an hour (and presumably find some birds and behave appropriately - I take those conditions as given) would be able to win any shooting dog stake in the country.  Now I find there are a lot of factors that have nothing to do with run, manners on birds and finding birds that would prevent that from happening.  Maybe he was under the influence of something stronger than tobacco...

Jere

I'll try to answer all the parts of your question. A dog has to stay to the front, usually making casts upward of a 1/4 mile or longer. There are a lot of turns to see how the dog handles, this makes the course a little longer. You might walk 1/2 mile one direction turn 90 degrees then do it over again. Through thick cover up hills through valley's. The handler usually walks at least a mile. The dog probably runs 3-5 miles to one of the handlers in that amount of time. They find a lot of birds, they are hunting not just running. I agree it would be nice to have dogs run in some pointing veneus, I think the NASTRA would be a great start or goal. They don't run nearly as big, but must look really good on birds. But the AF will most likely never be good for a labrador, I guess I don't know why you would want a lab to run like that. I guess I have seen a lot of great labradors run huge marks and blinds, but yet nothing gets my blood pumping like finding a pointer on a hill by a tree row blown up on birds. That's why I hunt my labradors every day of the week, and field trial pointers. Hopefully I answered your questions you can email me or call if you want to talk.

Thanks,

I may well not want my dog (PL, EP, DD, whatever) to run like those dogs do in AF trials.  I'll try and watch one someday to see what I really think.  But i do want the dog to cover the ground necessary to find the available birds expeditiously - comensurate with my physical ability to keep up.  In some places I hunt that calls for casts 200 yards either side of my path, sometimes the dog is 400 yards to the front but the average is much less  and my dogs probably get too closer to 3 and 9 o'clock than 10 and 2.  I'd love to see the output of a recording GPS strapped to one of those dogs running an AF trial. One could even have the bird planters put waypoints into the GPS memory at every bird plant site. Its on my list of to-dos for this winter - easier than using a laser rangefinder every minute or half. I also want the dog to keep track of where I am and where I am going. I guess this goes to the concept of "handling."  Nothing gets my blood pumping like finding my dog blown up on birds any time, near or far, up or down either. That's why I have PLs rather than flushing Labs.  But I don't want to have to search long for the dog.  For me it usually happens when I top a ridge and look down into the valley to find the dog on a covey of chukars, or make a turn in a wash  and there he's pointing.

I'm still a bit confused though.  If the handler walks a mile, the dog works out in front a quarter mile, the dog would have to cover ground on both sides of the handlers track out to 4/10 mile or nearly 700 yards to search a full section.  Is that a reasonable picture of what happens?

My real purpose in starting this thread was to get just the kind of information you experienced pointer guys have given on the table for those of us PL lovers who are ignorant to examine and think about.

I've recently heard some stuff about the way NSTRA games are played.  I think I'll stick with hunting. I'd never want to have to train my dog so I could call him off a point because he was in the wrong field. Beside my decrepit old body couldn't give a creditable performance and theat would surely detract from the dog...  Guess that's why I hunt out west on massive tracts of public ground. 

Thanks for your reply.

Jere