Most of you know that I breed english pointers as well.  I also find myself frequenting those types of sites, they have some good info for everyone that runs a pointing dog.  Here is a topic that came up on the use of a pigeon pole.  They have been around for decades.

http://thefieldtrialer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1883&p=17604&hilit=pigeon+pole#p17604

using a pigeon pole
http://thefieldtrialer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1871&p=17494&hilit=pigeon+pole#p17494

And a cool video on Libby proofing-- I would love to have their set up
http://thefieldtrialer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2426&hilit=libby

Posted By oakcreeklabs on 05 Jan 2012 11:18 AM
Most of you know that I breed english pointers as well.  I also find myself frequenting those types of sites, they have some good info for everyone that runs a pointing dog.  Here is a topic that came up on the use of a pigeon pole.  They have been around for decades.

http://thefieldtrialer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1883&p=17604&hilit=pigeon+pole#p17604

using a pigeon pole
http://thefieldtrialer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1871&p=17494&hilit=pigeon+pole#p17494

And a cool video on Libby proofing-- I would love to have their set up
http://thefieldtrialer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2426&hilit=libby

GREAT stuff. Thanks!
I especially enjoyed the video of Libby proofing in a flight pen! TOO funny that I has just hung up the phone with a nearby preserve owner getting his permission to allow Cody and me into his flight pen when I logged back on and saw your post.

By the way, he wouldn't let us IN the flight pen (pheasant) because he says that too often when the dog first gets in there, the birds spook pretty badly and break their necks flying into one of the enclosure barriers.

But he said I could stand outside the pen where the birds would be close and in plain view. I guess that's better than nothing. Would you agree?

If that would be a bad idea, I guess I could just offer to pay for any bird that commits suicide!!! (-:
Best, Jim

The only thing a flight pen does for your Labrador is hold the birds you'll use in the field. Its a neat little trick but the dog is just learning to stand in the pen and quickly becomes conditioned to do so. Now pay attention here- to 'stand' in the' pen'- not to point the bird in the field. Just like the lab learns it can not get the birds that are on the inside when its on the outside they ignore them very, very quickly, the same can not be said for traditional pointers they can t get enough and will run circles around the pen. Transition from the yard to the field does not need to include the flight pen if you have taught the dog well enough and in my opinion is a complete waste of time except for the rare mentally challenged lab.

Same can be said for the pigeon pole, its neat and a great way to have some kicks with your pup but has little to no value to your dog hunting and pointing birds.
 
 both are pretty easy on the trainer though!

I know your dogs have more letters and numbers than mine, but I don't agree with you at all.

A pigeon pole is a great way to start out young dogs transitioning through steady through flush coming out of the yard. And the libby pen is used to get the dogs ready for pen released trials, the same could be said for dizzied birds running around your labs legs at a hunt test. It teaches them to stand even when birds do weird things. I would argue that a libby pen should be used after you have a broke dog and before you go run a broke test, its not a transitioning training tool

You will never run a broke test in a flight pen, nor will the judge pull out a wing on a string and a labrador is smarter then most honor students!
Break a dog with a gun in your hand and you can reward him when he does it right.

You do run dogs in broke stakes on pen raised birds that come out of very similar flight pens. This scenario takes the situation to the extreme, however, it works. And most trainers do some kind of proofing whether it be whoaing a dog in the yard and allowing pen quail to walk around the dog, or throwing pigeons under the dog, or flying birds back over the dog, or releasing 15 birds in a row one at a time in front of the dog...... There are a bunch of different things that a person can do, and pros do use. I would venture to say that more pointing lab pros find themselves in a flight pen or coop at some point. I let puppies chase pigeons in a coop, I also plant them and let them chase them in the big outdoors as well.


I truly have never stepped foot on a pros training grounds that didn't have a form of wing on a string. Most people use them, as stated, when moving out of the yard and progressing through steady to flush. It is a way to proof a dog, not a way to break a dog. All dogs need to be free ran, the dogs in the video have been ran in front of a mule since they were 12 weeks old. But when you go to break a dog, I believe you need control. These training sessions are set up for quick bird contacts, and you are training for one thing. Have you never used carded pigeons, depending on the weight of the card the response of the bird is going to be fairly similar (except these will be easier to retrieve). I have used this program with pointers, shorthairs, and yes labs. Have you ever proofed your whoa in the yard by flying birds and making the dog watch them fly around? Its the same thing except when you are working 15-25 dogs at a time it saves time and birds. Most people don't have 80 homing pigeons sitting in the loft.

I have always really appreciated what you do with your dogs, and how they look doing it. So I am by no means putting that in question, however, I do think that this type of training can be a valuable tool.

Most pointing dog people do use whoa as a way to promote steadiness in a dog. You let them point on their own, but with whoa foundation you can make correction to lack of steadiness in a dog. In the end I do not use the verbal command of whoa, just a nick for breach of manners. If the foundation is taught correctly then the dog understands the corrections and continues the process of becoming a broke bird dog. If you haven't set the foundation then the dog doesn't correlate the correction to the movement, but most likely correlates the correction to the bird (which would be the opposite of what a person is looking for).. I guess this is how I use whoa, and was taught by different pros to use it. Its a tool in the belt that gets a dog from point a to point z

Sure its easy for the trainer , heck if just put all my dogs in a flight pen and used a pigeon pole I could train 20 more dogs and be fat and happy like the trainers in some of those videos, my knees would hurt less and my shoes would last longer as it stands right now I am replacing them every 3 or 4 months. Some times what works best for us isn't the best for the dogs. and the reactions from traditionals and Pls are very different with these types of things, labs are smart alright and easily bored with this stuff, do they get something out of it yes they get conditioned to stand in a flight pen. Tools yes. A regular part of training,not for Pl's, and Ive tried it and about everything else and now only will use it for the challenged dog (1x in the last 70-80).
The flight pen is not an easy resource.
Pigeons are and you don't need 80(homers) for 1 dog.
Learning to incorporate the retrieve while training your upland lab gets you much further ahead then these types of things, allowing them to bump and chase birds does as well.
And OakCreek I am talking PL's here which Ive tried to make clear I appreciate all the things Iv learned from the traditional s, I will always appreciate that I didn t know what I was doing with a PL at my first test, how many birds did we find again-all of them, not much has changed since except I have less friends.

My point, and maybe not a clear one, is that the process of using a pigeon pole is probably a 2 week training tool in a dogs life. It by no means should be used everytime out, it should only be used for specific training sessions. Therefore, by no means does it make the entire process easier on the handler. By no means should this be a normal training routine for any dog, pointer, setter, shorthair, or lab. That is not what it is meant to be.

Though it started as a traditional pointer thread, I have used these on pointing labs with great success. And not the 1 in 100 dogs either.

Do labs bore easier due to a lesser bird drive? All dogs bore with too many pigeons, too many planted birds, only running in the same place, and so on. However sometimes that type of controled invironment is what dog needs to get through a certain part of their training, but you must mix it with free runs.

Anyways, back to work I must go. Good converstation, and I hope no one feels slighted. Everyone has a different training philospy, but I am also sure that you have broke more labs than I have, but I assume I have helped break more traditionals. So as far as this forum my opinion probably means less.

I would be really interested in learning how the pigeon pole works....the mechanics of bringing a dog into it. At what stage of the learning process do you incorporate it?.....and do you or can you use it in conjunction with the training methods in Julies book. I'm at the whoa process right now with Julies book....doggie is on the board....and is to the point he is transitioning his thinking and loves to get on it and stand still. Love to hear from Oakcreek..Julie..OD..Zeke...and any others that would like to contribute.

Ringing in my ears as I read this thread are Julie's words that PLs and the various "traditional" pointing breeds are DIFFERENT animals in terms of their typical behaviors...which is why labs so dominate the "service dog" industry. We don't see many GSPs in use as guide dogs and there is a REASON for that.


So, I believe that the use of a flight pen for a PORTION of a PL's training is an excellent idea...and I think that for one and only one reason...because Julie says so!




Also ringing in my ears is her often repeated comments that there is no one single set of techniques INCLUDING HERS...that is right for every dog and/or every trainer.,br>


But when faced with conflicting advice from highly successful people...as are included in this discussion...I resort to simple logic. And simple logic leads me to believe that in order to PROOF a dog's conditioning with respect to a given behavior, exposing the dog to MAXIMUM temptation to do something we don't want it to do is an excellent idea.



Assuming that we know from observation that our dog is CRAZY to go get a game bird in its jaws...it is perfectly clear to me that standing the dog in a rock solid "whoa" position while birds it desperately wants to capture are running around it is something very close to maximum temptation to break the whoa position. I suppose that the only other greater temptation would be a flushing bird in the field and THAT is where the rubber meets the road.



But most of us just don't have very convenient access to flushing wild game birds so as a STEP in the direction of success, a few sessions...lengthy sessions...in a flight pen makes great logical sense to me. Does the dog get bored? Absolutely and HOPEFULLY because conditioning a dog to perform in a given way...especially when it doesn't particular WANT to...is what deep conditioning is all about IMHO.



VERY interesting thread



Best,
Jim

WELL boring these dogs with a training technique is not anything I would care to do. That's just me .
The better dogs, maybe the best need to be challenged and given stimulating (make them think) training, not bore them IMO.
Barrels used to be the way, place boards used to be a way, most have advanced beyond them, they are just one more thing you don't need, adding grey areas to what they are capable to handle much better in Black and White....

All Ill tell you is that over many dogs I learned to trim the fat off my whoa breaking approach and figured out what was important on building a confident stylish lab that points and hunts, a flight pen was categorized into the"fat"department. A pigeon pole as well.In fact just about any approach that results in the dog having to endure birds running around its feet on Whoa I threw out as 90% of the time it results in problems.  Ill tell you its so circumstantial to the dog all the labs tend get out of it is a conditioned response to stand in the pen and the birds are a secondary factor, it does not carry over to the field very well and that is were the rubber meets the road. Both are tools if you need to get them out of the box but neither are necessary, sure using a pen or pole to get a pup birdy can be effective and fun but it don't transition to the field for pointing very well and has nothing to do with dog using its nose. Your time is better spent in the field with uncatchable birds keeping your mouth shut and letting the dog figure it out.

My Whoa training doesn 't need a barrel, place board, bird pen, pole, check cord(yard only), and its too dangerous to put out there on the internet and have guys screw up there dogs as it revolves around solid collar conditioning, a firm timeline with flow and quick transition to the field and an strong aptitude for reading dogs. Maybe I am wrong for telling you not to do something without providing info on other tactics but Ill reiterate a flight pen is not a necessity to train your PL.

And Oakcreek your input is good! Sorry to offend.

Posted By Paco on 06 Jan 2012 01:53 PM
WELL boring these dogs with a training technique is not anything I would care to do. That's just me .
The better dogs, maybe the best need to be challenged and given stimulating (make them think) training, not bore them IMO.
Barrels used to be the way, place boards used to be a way, most have advanced beyond them, they are just one more thing you don't need, adding grey areas to what they are capable to handle much better in Black and White....

I understand where you've coming from but your comments apply to only a SMALL PART of the process. One's, in the case of flight pen exposure would amount to mere minutes in the total training regime.

And I would have to respectfully differ with you if you think that such training as heel, sit and whoa training is anything other than boring to dogs...in spite of how "fun" we might TRY to make such exercises.

I think that it would be awfully difficult to condition a dog to "heel to the line" or the holding blinds in a mannerly way...off lead...during a hunt test if the trainer has not spent a LOT of time teaching heel under conditions of significant distractions.
(-:
And I would have to see some statistics to support your view that most trainers have abandoned barrels and place boards...in general. I just have too many books/DVDs of fairly recent date by world renowned trainers...and actual pro trainer experiences with my dog... to accept your view as fact.

Personally, I believe that dogs learn in "chains" and I see nothing wrong in using a place board to INITIALLY make it clear to the dog that it is not supposed to leave where it is standing. The board merely gives the dog a "reference" that a random piece of ground cannot.

Once the dog won't leave the board...then FINE...everyone (I assume) knows that you transition to bare ground.

As for the whoa barrel...what the dog WANTS to do is MOVE from the place it is standing but CANNOT do so when on the barrel. So, far any dog who doesn't want to keep its feet ABSOLUTELY STILL (which has NOTHING to do with raw intelligence IMHO)the whoa barrel makes it clear to the dog that "whoa" means remain EXACTLY in place

Then you go to the ground as the next link in the chain. Again, I see nothing wrong with that. And I think that any assertion that a dog who benefits from a whoa barrel (or place board) isn't as smart as one who doesn't need them is just flat incorrect. And nothing short of a LARGE, peer reviewed scientific study would change my mind on that point.

So, it all gets down to "different strokes for different folks" AND "different dogs!" I would therefore not be particularly inclined to dismiss tried and true techniques STILL in widespread use by many of the most noted trainers on the planet as being unproductive or obsolete.

Just my 2 cents.
Regards, Jim

,br>Tigerliberty...." Maybe I am wrong for telling you not to do something without providing info on other tactics but Ill reiterate a flight pen is not a necessity to train your PL.",br>
With great respect...FINE...you're RIGHT. But a whistle isn't "necessary" either. The "buzzer" function on many collars could be used to accomplish ANYTHING you do with a whistle

Neither is a choke chain...or pinch collar if you will allow me to belabor the point.

And again, I think you are at least partially missing the point. The flight pen...as far as I know...is not so much a TRAINING tool as much as it can be used to PROOF prior training.

But from a "training" point of view, exposure to maximum temptation to disobey is, in my view, a classic and irrefutable technique. Lardy often recommends CREATING instances of disobedience when a dog is, for example, "doing too well on CC." So to be SURE the conditioning has become fully behavioral, he "tricks" dogs into behavior that results in a correction.

Having said all the above, fine, if you have techniques that work for you that would provide the same temptations as a flight pen would then GREAT. But VERY, VERY few dog owner/trainers have access to flushing wild birds very often (etc) so I think that you pro kennel operator/trainers need to keep in mind that the rest of us must use the resources available to US.

You wrote..."solid collar conditioning, a firm timeline...

I have to admit to you...at the risk of offending...that I had to laugh out loud at your "firm timeline" remark. It's hard to imagine that anyone exposed to training a large number of dogs (which I am SURE YOU HAVE) could suggest that there is anything resembling a "firm timeline" in training dogs of different ages...breeding...and former owner inputs etc.

Again, I REALLY don't mean to offend you or anyone else. I'm trying to engage in a discussion. But I just have to call 'em as I see 'em.

And PLEASE don't ask how many dogs I've trained because that's not relevant. (-:

What is relevant to STUDENTS like me, are the views of noted experts. So, if anyone slams ME for a given view, I would just respond with quotations from those who have likely trained/handled a HUGELY greater number of champion dogs than the person with whom I am engaged in a discussion. So getting into the "What do you know?" debate tactic is going to be a loser. (-:
Regards, Jim

Hmm, I sense a "someone whizzed in my cornflakes" thing going on around here. No offense 

I dont think Dale is being critical of the dogs that have gone through those training techniques, he is just saying that his experience has led him to believe that for the vast majority of dogs they are not necessary in his training program.

In my mind they are methods of handler control. They are not directly teaching the dog to work birds, they are desensitizing the dog to an "undesired natural bird reaction"(chase and grab) and not really enhancing the "desired natural bird reaction" (a staunch engaged point).  That is, the control reaction is primary and the bird reaction is secondary.  That is likely why Matt uses them in limited measure.  Not saying there isnt some value in them but none of my dogs have seen either and I have no regrets.

I like the minimal use of control techniques including the verbal whoa - prefering to let an instance of a bird find teach the dog.  You dont have to be in a wild bird area for this.  Pigeons and chukars can teach a young dog manners.  That is why I sent my last one to Dale for this.  The only part of the dog's training I outsourced. 

I am not a pro, have only trained a few dogs but I like the style and faster recognition of wild bird sense that comes out of the lower control/high bird contact methods.

Bruce...if Dan is "tiger"...then he wrote..."."
"Maybe I am wrong for telling you not to do something without providing info on other tactics but Ill reiterate a flight pen is not a necessity to train your PL.",br>
So, his comments are far from your description that he was referring to HIS training program.

Rather, he is clearly stating that flight pen sessions are not necessary in ANY training program.

I don't know about the peeing in the Wheaties thing but I am still laughing at that phrase! (-: But I tried to go out of my way to be polite...and think I was. In addition, I don't think anyone else is being impolite. I think there is clearly disagreement and that it is GREAT that such opposing views can be discussed between reasonable people.
Regards, Jim

If you are going into that much work to get your dog into a pen full of birds, why not find a field full of wild birds? Heck go into the field without a gun just like you would the pen full of birds. I dont think Dale or Paco were disagreeing, maybe just giving you an idea of what might be more beneficial to the dog, not you.

Jim you caught my post in edit stage before it was done "Dan" was a typo.

I am not an expert on this either. Few are, but I am to the point that I recognize that you have to be very very carefull at transitioning retriever training thought processes into a dog's upland learning. That to me is the main drawback of some of the traditional PL upland training methods. Retriever training is control oriented training. Upland is mostly putting a dog (repeatedly) in the position to learn to work independently. Too much control results in low bird finding productivity and high control methods generally do not transition to the field, especially on wild birds. Retreiver training and fostering "bird sense" are two very different things that make these dogs so special when it all comes together.

These are general comments because of all the linking of retriever training concepts above to upland. Not meant as specific to a bird pole.