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 Thursday, May 17, 2012
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Pointing Lab Forums
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native dog food
Last Post 08 Jan 2012 06:38 PM by Doc_E. 23 Replies. |
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halby
New Member
Posts:7
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| 03 Jan 2012 05:14 PM |
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hey any body feed this stuff ? trying to pick a new food thanks |
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 03 Jan 2012 05:26 PM |
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I'm not familiar with it but it got 4 Stars (out of 5) on the Dog Food Adviser.
I do NOT know how good or bad the Dog Food Adviser is so I am making no endorsement. But it does get quoted a lot when questions like yours are asked. Here is a link to their Native review.
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/native-performance-dog-food-dry/
Regards,
Jim |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 03 Jan 2012 07:30 PM |
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Different dogs do better or worse on some foods than others.
Just because my dogs do best on Eagle Pack, doesn't mean yours might or might not.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Tug&Goose
Basic Member
Posts:457
SW MN
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| 03 Jan 2012 09:39 PM |
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I agree with Doc some foods do not match certain dogs.
I however do feed native and have had great results overall. I feed the #2 formula and the dogs seem to maintain there weight great coat condition and all. There have been times that I wish I had bumped it up to formula #3 during training and the dogs get a bit thinner than I prefer. Overall very solid food from my experience. |
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| 4XGMPR HRCH Bearpoints Rosco MH |
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 03 Jan 2012 10:56 PM |
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Posted By Doc_E on 03 Jan 2012 07:30 PM
Different dogs do better or worse on some foods than others.
Just because my dogs do best on Eagle Pack, doesn't mean yours might or might not.
.
That, of course, is true but I assume the poster was asking for views on "quality" foods that we feed our dogs.
Hills Science Diet, for example, is JUNK food with CORN being the #1 ingredient. Granted dog's are omnivores not carnivores but they certainly aren't vegetarians! (-:
The OP didn't mention the reasons for the change. My Cody was diagnosed with food allergies so we switched to a limited ingredient food which cleared up the problem but the food has a relatively low protein content.
So, we will transition him to the 5 Star rated Taste of the Wild Sierra Mountain with lamb as its first ingredient, no chicken, no grain and no egg which can be hyper-allergenic.
Regards,
Jim |
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Maximillion
Basic Member
Posts:380
Kenly, North Carolina
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| 04 Jan 2012 02:03 AM |
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I have tried a few, and When max would go out to training and loose weight, and not gain it back, we found the problem, and then switched to Blue Buffalo Basics Salmon and Potato. Eli will also go on thae same food After May. he is currently using Blue Buffaao Large Breed Puppy. He didn't do good on Purina One.
Wheat, Corn, some meats can cause or be the cause of allergy reactions or health issues in some of our puppies.
Halby, if we may ask why are you wanting to switch? might help in narowing down a food for you |
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Richard McCullough
3.5XGMPR HRCH Lankas Labs Brandys Maximillion MH "Max"
CPR SHR Rick's Rooster Smasher of DRL JH "Eli"
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halby
New Member
Posts:7
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| 04 Jan 2012 03:58 PM |
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thanks for the replies. two year old lab.weights 60 lbs, get lots of exercise hunts 2-3 times a week is kept outside in a run during the day and in yhe house when we are home at night. was feeding him pro plan 30 /20 3 to 4 cups a day my vet said the food was not so good he and i both thought his coat was a little thin he said another food might help so i switched to eukanuba 30/20 feeding the same amount thi is his second 40lb bag i think his coat is a little better but he some times scracthes his skin does not look like he has a rash. his coat is nice just does not have a heavy under fur like my other lab maybe he just has a lite coat . thanks again |
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 04 Jan 2012 05:20 PM |
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Posted By halby on 04 Jan 2012 03:58 PM
thanks for the replies. two year old lab.weights 60 lbs, get lots of exercise hunts 2-3 times a week is kept outside in a run during the day and in yhe house when we are home at night. was feeding him pro plan 30 /20 3 to 4 cups a day my vet said the food was not so good he and i both thought his coat was a little thin he said another food might help so i switched to eukanuba 30/20 feeding the same amount thi is his second 40lb bag i think his coat is a little better but he some times scracthes his skin does not look like he has a rash. his coat is nice just does not have a heavy under fur like my other lab maybe he just has a lite coat . thanks again
I took Cody off Pro Plan as well. It took quite a while but my vet diagnosed him with food allergies instead of "inhaled" or "contact" environmental allergies with the CAUTION that the environmental allergies could also be present on a seasonal basis.
I would give the new food several more weeks because labs tend to take longer to adjust...in terms of allergies... to new foods than most other dogs.
In addition, ask your vet if he/she agrees (as mine did) with an Omega 3 supplement...BUT...be sure to get one that has a balance between Omega 3 and 6. I have read that an imbalance of 3 vs. 6. can actually reverse the antioxidant properties of 3.
I chose VitaCaps sold on-line by Drs. Foster & Smith. Cody gets 1 pill with each of his 2 meals.
If the dog doesn't itch aggressively and often enough to cause skin damage then consider yourself lucky. People scratch their itches once in a while too!!
Good luck,
Jim |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 04 Jan 2012 07:30 PM |
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Posted By halby on 04 Jan 2012 03:58 PM
i think his coat is a little better but he some times scracthes his skin does not look like he has a rash. his coat is nice just does not have a heavy under fur like my other lab maybe he just has a lite coat . thanks again
Some dogs have more or less undercoat.
Do you supplement with Omega-3 faty acids (fish oil) ?
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 04 Jan 2012 07:44 PM |
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Posted By av84fun on 04 Jan 2012 05:20 PM
1. In addition, ask your vet if he/she agrees (as mine did) with an Omega 3 supplement...BUT...be sure to get one that has a balance between Omega 3 and 6. I have read that an imbalance of 3 vs. 6. can actually reverse the antioxidant properties of 3.
2. I chose VitaCaps sold on-line by Drs. Foster & Smith. Cody gets 1 pill with each of his 2 meals.
Jim
1. DO NOT supplement with more Omega-6. The fats in dog food are primarily animal based (which are O-6). Most experts are saying a ratio of 2 parts O-6 to 1part of O-3 is the best ratio. (the older recommendation was 5 parts O-6 to 1 part of O-3)
O-3 have NO antioxidant capabilities -- they are anti-inflamatories, not antioxidants.
However, if you supplement with O-3 you need to give additional antioxidants in order to prevent peroxidation (rancidity) of the O-3 once it's in the animal. The best is 100 iu Vit E per 600 mg to 1200 mg of Fish Oil.
2. Too much O-6 reduces the anti-inflamatory properties of O-3, so why would you want to supplement with a product that contains even more O-6, since dogs are getting plenty of O-6 in their dog food ? . |
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 04 Jan 2012 08:15 PM |
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More on Foster & Smith Vita Caps :
Ingredients:
Capsules: Fish Oil, Gelatin, Borage Oil, Safflower Oil, Purified Water, dl-alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (source of Vitamin E), Beeswax, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Color Added (Titanium Dioxide, Turmeric, FD&C Blue #1, caramel), Beta-carotene, Zinc Oxide.
Liquid: Fish Oil, Safflower Oil, Mono & Diglycerides, Wheat Germ Oil, Vitamin E Supplement, Flaxseed Oil, Zinc Stearate, Ascorbyl Palmitate (preservative), Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid (preservatives), Rosemary Extract.
dl-alpha tocopheryl is the synthetic form of Vit E -- and 15 mg is only enough to protect the O-3 while in the capsule (not near enough to protect the O-3 once inside the animal)
Why the heck do they add artificial colors ? ? ? ? Colors in dog foods or supplements are for the humans, not for the dogs ! ! !
Mono & Diglycerides are crap ingredients. I certainly wouldn't put them in my dog !
Flaxseed oil is useful as long as it is less than 300 mg per day (they don't say how much is in their product)
Stearate minerals are probably of no benefit nutritionally.
I certainly wouldn't give this product to my dogs.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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DLloydBoy
New Member
Posts:61
Alanson, MI
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| 04 Jan 2012 09:27 PM |
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I have been feeding Level 4 this fall... All three of my dogs did good on it. But there is only one place near me, almost hour away, and they where out here last week. Had to pick up a bag of PPP...
Might go back to Caribou Creek Gold, a sled dog food, from here in MI. My dogs great on that food last year but was giving Native a try... |
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APR Greenwing's Rebecca Pearl Harbor of Sauk River
CPR Isaac Ben Doc of Alma Bottom 2006 RGS GDOY - 2nd Place Pointing dog division
CPR Greenwing's Abraham of Sauk River 2010 RGS GDOY - 3rd place Pointing dog division
Proud new Rookie of "MM"
GreenwingKennel.com
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 04 Jan 2012 10:49 PM |
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Posted By Doc_E on 04 Jan 2012 07:44 PM
Posted By av84fun on 04 Jan 2012 05:20 PM
1. In addition, ask your vet if he/she agrees (as mine did) with an Omega 3 supplement...BUT...be sure to get one that has a balance between Omega 3 and 6. I have read that an imbalance of 3 vs. 6. can actually reverse the antioxidant properties of 3.
2. I chose VitaCaps sold on-line by Drs. Foster & Smith. Cody gets 1 pill with each of his 2 meals.
Jim
1. DO NOT supplement with more Omega-6. The fats in dog food are primarily animal based (which are O-6). Most experts are saying a ratio of 2 parts O-6 to 1part of O-3 is the best ratio. (the older recommendation was 5 parts O-6 to 1 part of O-3)
O-3 have NO antioxidant capabilities -- they are anti-inflamatories, not antioxidants.
However, if you supplement with O-3 you need to give additional antioxidants in order to prevent peroxidation (rancidity) of the O-3 once it's in the animal. The best is 100 iu Vit E per 600 mg to 1200 mg of Fish Oil.
2. Too much O-6 reduces the anti-inflamatory properties of O-3, so why would you want to supplement with a product that contains even more O-6, since dogs are getting plenty of O-6 in their dog food ?
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Doc, thanks for pointing out some errors in my post. Yes, I reversed anti-inflamatory and anti-oxidant when mentioning Omega 3 and 6.
In addition, I misstated the product I use. In fact, I use ONLY an Omega 3 supplement known as Premium Plus Omega 3 which is 3 only and no 6. (I used to use the other brand before finding out that it was the WRONG product in regards to allergy-oriented supplementation.
But we can never be sure what amount of fatty acids are actually in the dog foods we buy. Overcooking,for example, can destroy all fatty acids and improper storage can diminish them as well.
"Heat, light and humidity are the natural enemies of pet food. To best avoid all of them and keep your pet's food fresh and delicious, we recommend storing bagged food in the original bag with the top tightly rolled down inside an air-tight container. If at all possible, avoid storing your pet's food in a humid environment such as a basement or laundry room." (Dr. Foster & Smith)
I would bet that only a small percentage of dog owners abide by those instructions so the actual amounts of nutrients available at the bottom of the bag are measurably different than what is fed from the top of the bag.
In addition, the amounts of fatty acids shown on the labels refer to a percentage by weight not in units such as milligrams. So the PORTION GIVEN of the food determines how much fatty acids are consumed by the dog...assuming that they haven't been cooked off in the first place. When you give an Omega 3 supplement, at least you know for a FACT that the dog is getting X milligrams.
As an aside and in the context of not necessarily getting what it says on the bag, most dog food "Guaranteed Analysis" labels refer to amounts of nutrients BEFORE COOKING...just like the weight of a Quarter Pounder is advertised weight before it is cooked! Very few foods have labels reflecting nutrients on an "as fed" basis. So, for most foods, you are FLAT NOT getting the "guaranteed" amounts of nutrients shown on the bag!
Finally, with respect to WHY I give Omega 3 supplements...
1. My vet said it might help re: allergies.
2. Drs. Foster & Smith...a widely respected pet products company founded by practicing vets says regarding their Omega 3 product..."If you only buy one item for your dog's overall wellness, make it this one!" Pretty impressive words from a company that wants to sell us a LOT of products!
3. I asked the Natural Balance nutrition rep who was at my local pet food store if he had any problem with using an Omega 3 supplement for allergy benefits, he said "Absolutely not." And I would note that Natural Balance is one of the few companies who show AS FED nutrient content on their bags.
Finally, certain digestive disorders can reduce the amount of fatty acids that are actually processed by the dog which is just another reason why we can't know what percentage of the advertised nutrients our dogs are actually consuming and processing.
Best,
Jim |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 04 Jan 2012 11:35 PM |
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Premium Plus Omega 3 :
I certainly would not use the chewable tablets -- crappy artificial preservatives, artificial flavor, synthetic Vit E
The gel caps look lots better -- but still no mention of the amount of mixed tocopherols in the product. I'd betcha it's only enough to protect the Omegas from peroxidation while in the capsule and not enough to protect it from peroxidation once it's in the dog. I'm guessing 20 iu or less per capsule. As I mentioned before, you need 100 iu Vit E per 600 to 1200 mg of fish oil in order to pretect it from peroxidation once inside the dog.
They mention mercury, but make no mention of PCBs, cadmium, lead, arsenic etc etc etc.
If the product does not say "Pharmaceutical Grade" or "Molecular Distilled", it can contain all (and more) of the contaminants I mentioned.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 05 Jan 2012 11:09 AM |
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Posted By Doc_E on 04 Jan 2012 11:35 PM
Premium Plus Omega 3 :
I certainly would not use the chewable tablets -- crappy artificial preservatives, artificial flavor, synthetic Vit E
The gel caps look lots better -- but still no mention of the amount of mixed tocopherols in the product. I'd betcha it's only enough to protect the Omegas from peroxidation while in the capsule and not enough to protect it from peroxidation once it's in the dog. I'm guessing 20 iu or less per capsule. As I mentioned before, you need 100 iu Vit E per 600 to 1200 mg of fish oil in order to pretect it from peroxidation once inside the dog.
They mention mercury, but make no mention of PCBs, cadmium, lead, arsenic etc etc etc.
If the product does not say "Pharmaceutical Grade" or "Molecular Distilled", it can contain all (and more) of the contaminants I mentioned.
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Thanks for the info Doc. I do feed the gel caps and the literature does say "no PCBs".
With respect to your other comments I don't think that many dog food labels disclose the units of their tocopherols or whether the vitamins are "pharmaceutical grade."
I appreciate where you're coming from but we could drive ourselves crazy by approaching even our own food intake with such scrutiny. At some point, you just have to place trust in the vendor.
Drs. Foster and Smith have been vets as well as businessmen for over 30 years. Foster, to this day serves on the Board of Directors of the Veterinary Teaching Hospital at Michigan State University...a very highly regarded vet school. And Dr. Smith is a NOTED breeder of English Setters who and owns a dozen or more of them personally. (according to their web-site.
So when experts like that state on their website that if you buy ANY supplement for your dog's overall health, buy this one...that's about all I need to know.
For the record, I have no association with the Foster & Smith company whatsoever. I've just been buying their products for a couple of decades.
Regards,
Jim |
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Boeinguy
New Member
Posts:94
Boise, ID
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| 05 Jan 2012 04:18 PM |
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Wow! And to think I have to eat "Airplane Food"!!  |
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| "The Best Meal A Man Can Eat Has Already Been In His Dog's Mouth" ..."Dad" |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 05 Jan 2012 07:50 PM |
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We all need to do what we think is best -- I prefer to go with peer reviewed published literature.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 05 Jan 2012 08:11 PM |
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Posted By av84fun on 05 Jan 2012 11:09 AM
1. Thanks for the info Doc. I do feed the gel caps and the literature does say "no PCBs".
2. With respect to your other comments I don't think that many dog food labels disclose the units of their tocopherols or whether the vitamins are "pharmaceutical grade."
3. So when experts like that state on their website that if you buy ANY supplement for your dog's overall health, buy this one...that's about all I need to know.
Regards, Jim
1. There can be a lot of crap other than Mercury and PCBs. The product that I give says :
"Molecular Distilled -- "This omega-3 is tested and complies with the CRN monograph for all contaminants including PCBs, all dioxins, arsenic, cadmium, mercury, strontium, lead and peroxide value". (I really don't think that F&S can say this --- if they could, they would)
2. We were talking about Fish Oil (Omega-3) and NOT dog food.
Vitamins don't always have to be pharmaceutical grade (I prefer 'from natural sources' over pharmaceutical grade vitamins) -- we were talking about Fish Oil (Omega-3), which IMO should be either Molecular Distilled or Pharmaceutical Grade.
Many vitamin additions to dog food are laboratory made.
3. Grain of salt regards,
Doc E & HR UH MHR WR SR Casey
&
Nami E & HRCH HR UH Tucker
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 05 Jan 2012 09:58 PM |
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Doc..."The product that I give says :
"Molecular Distilled -- "This omega-3 is tested and complies with the CRN monograph for all contaminants including PCBs, all dioxins, arsenic, cadmium, mercury, strontium, lead and peroxide value". (I really don't think that F&S can say this --- if they could, they would)"
Great. What product do you give and what dosage per weight of dog?
Doc, you seem fond of using the word "crap" when referring to food ingredients. I assure you that I have never seen "crap" listed on the label of any food or supplement I use for feed to my dogs. As for mono and digylcerides being "crap" not everyone would agree with you.
Are there any health risk associated with monoglycerides and diglycerides?
Presently, there is no research that suggests negative health impact from monoglycerides and diglycerides.
http://www.eatingrealfood.com/
and
Mono and diglycerides are used, according to their specific characteristics, as emulsifying, coating and flour treatment agents, as well as stabilisers and antioxidants in specific areas of production.
Similar to lecithin mono and diglycerides are used particularly in:
confectionery and chocolate products such as pralines and chocolate bars (prevents the crystallisation of fat)
ice cream (giving it a softer consistency)
bread and bakery products (making the dough lighter)
http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/database/e-numbers/159.mono_diglycerides.html
GMO is a respected, science based British organization specializing in food analysis and ag research.
Bottom line, they are emulsifiers that are used in hundreds of thousands of products. However, if you have peer reviewed studies that show a significant health hazard, you would do us all a great service by linking them here since we all likely consume them on a daily basis.
You wrote..."We were talking about Fish Oil (Omega-3) and NOT dog food.
No, the thread morphed to ingredients found in pet products in general including mixed tocopherols that you insist must be present in given amounts. I just asked if the dog food you feed lists the amounts of MTs on their label. And, in fact, Omega 3 and 6 typically are included in dog foods...not just supplements.
And YES...I agree that all canine nutrition comments should be taken with a grain of salt...especially when they come from folks who are not veterinarians.
Regards,
Jim
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 06 Jan 2012 07:42 AM |
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Posted By av84fun on 05 Jan 2012 09:58 PM
1. Great. What product do you give and what dosage per weight of dog?
2. As for mono and digylcerides being "crap" not everyone would agree with you.
Are there any health risk associated with monoglycerides and diglycerides?
Bottom line, they are emulsifiers that are used in hundreds of thousands of products. However, if you have peer reviewed studies that show a significant health hazard, you would do us all a great service by linking them here since we all likely consume them on a daily basis.
3. And YES...I agree that all canine nutrition comments should be taken with a grain of salt...especially when they come from folks who are not veterinarians.
Regards,
Jim
1. Complete Omega-3 Essentials, made by NutriWest Laboratories
1/4 tsp twice a day for an average sized retriever
2. There are various forms of the mono & di glycerides. Some have been shown to have toxicity some are maybe and some might be totally safe. I'm getting ready to go to the office now and then go hunting for the weekend, so I don't have time to look the studies up for you right now.
Typically the better companies use lecithin instead -- but it does cost a little more. When I see something with mono or di glycerides instead of lecithin, it makes me think that they are more interested in the bottom line instead of healthy alternatives.
I'd still like to know why Drs F&S use artificial colors and artificial flavors. I've never heard of
animals getting sick from a deficiency in either one.
3. Most Vet schols offer less than 15 hours of classroom time in nutrition, and many of those "classes" are sponsored by and put on by dog food companies.
I am a Diplomate in Clinical Nutrition (300 classroom hours).
In the 'pigeon pole' thread, Julie said, "you have to do what you're able to do with the resources available, and what feels right for you " --- I think that statement applies to this thread as well.
Doc & HR UH MHR WR SR Casey
&
Nami E & HRCH UH HR Tucker
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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