I don't do tests. From the perspective of a hunter, what works for us (dog and me) works. What you described would work. I'm looking for a well developed, shared, cooperative experience in the field between myself and dog as respectful partners - if that makes sense. Dogs love "ritual" once they learn the game! Leaving for a retrieve before being released by me would not.

I'll accept, even expect, bank running and major deviation from straight lines on marks in some situations. Those are generally strongly frowned upon in the formal venues, but I want the dog using its head; not expecting control from me, but accepting it when I "offer" it.

That said - look to the rules of the venue you're running in and ask some judges. Don't run under judges who don't know the rules.

Jere

Hello Chris,
For your last sentence the dog would need to stop and not continue or that could be viewed as a break or controlled break depending what happened

If the conditions are right, and the dog needs to move to view the flight and fall that is allowed and should be. The statement of if your dog moved he is out is not the right thing to say or do.

Oh, and good work with Rain in New York.

IN APLA Master, the dog and handler get some consideration for moving to see the bird. Specifically, the instance you mention where the gunner is in the dogs line of sight to the bird fall is a good example. As Richard mentions the dog needs to reposition then stop on its own. If the handler has to stop the dogs forward progress, that is a controlled break.  Master rules specifically allow for the handler to move to see the dog or bird but do not specify the dogs ability to move to see the bird.  I have never ran under or judged with anyone that did not allow a dog to move to see a bird fall. 

Some dogs do this more than others. I have seen some consistently take a step toward where the bird is going but always just that and immediately stop without a command. I had a dog like that and also have one now that prett much ran all of his tests without budging regardless of the birds path. Either way, a reasonable re-position to view the bird fall (with the dog stopping on its own), to me, should not be an issue and I have not seen other judges take issue with it.

Again, some dogs like to do this more than others and I would keep an eye on it in training so that it doesnt escalate to mulitple steps or a full break in a test.

Damn, I failed a dog twice for controlled break. Once because the Judge was standing between the dog and bird, and once because the cover was high. Persoannal call I guess. Jon

I am not sure how to address the "high cover" issue. That is really something where a person would need to see the situation. If the dog points in heavy cover, it would not be appropriate for the dog to walk out of the cover to get a better view. The dog should be expected to mark in high cover. I was referring to a situation where there is a specific obstacle that blocks the dogs line of site (a person, tree/bush) that can be avoided it the dog takes a step to look around it and stops on his own (with a silent handler). If the dog is taking mulitple steps for a "better view" and/or the handler is talking to the dog or on the whistle though the process then the judges have a different set of factors to consider. 
 
You get one controled break in the Master upland field. The second one DQ's the dog.

Thanks for the responses guys. I recently failed a test in NC and as is normally the case, it was my fault. I have always been in the habit of blowing the sit whistle after every shot fired. Whether it be hunting or testing. In NY this year I decided to take the whistle out of my mouth and let the good times role. Of course, my little girl did her thing and made me look good.
Rain will almost always move towards the fall, but I thinks its more a function of her rotating to follow the bird in flight which is fine. Being an unseasoned handler I always assumed a sit whistle was in order, yet what I was doing was telling the judges that my dog was breaking.
Maybe I'll be a better handler with my next dog, lord knows I've tried my best in every way to screw my first one up! 
Thanks again guys.

Jere..."I'll accept, even expect, bank running and major deviation from straight lines on marks in some situations."

HA! I feel the same way which is why I may not get Cody past his SH and CPR. I am a TOTAL ROOKIE to Hunt Testing (1 pass late last season in the JH) but I consider myself 95% HUNTER and 5% Test Handler.

I will probably get...and possibly deserve a ton of flak for this...but IMHO what should "fail" a dog is NOT TAKING THE QUICKEST AND MOST EFFICIENT ROUTE TO THE FALL!!!

I see ZERO practical applications to forcing a dog to bust ice or rough water in a straight line to a MARK when the dog could run the bank and retrieve the bird back to hand in 1/4 of the time vs. swimming on a direct line.

I dig it that a dog has to go on a straight line to a blind...for obvious reasons. But let the dog get to a MARK using his own brains...AFAIC!

(-:

Jim

There are a few simple reasons why a straight line to a mark is often times a better option than letting your dog run wherever it wants. The practical hunting scenerio would be if you shoot a bird and the easiest way to bird might be good cover that could hold more birds. By not taking a straight line, your "smart dog" chooses his own way to the bird and busts other birds that you are unable to shoot. Thats a practical real world scenerio.

However, the real reason why you want to teach your dog to run a line and hold it to a fall is because a dog that runs straight to the fall, more often than not, marks much better than if it takes a looping or bank running route. This is proven over and over again when a smart judge throws a good mark that will lead a dog out of sight or in to the fall of another bird if a straight line isn't taken.
I see marking as the most important tool in a dogs toolbox. In my experience and all the high level trainers I've spoken with, dogs that run straight lines pick up more marks than dogs that try to do ith their way. 

There are of course times when a straight line isn't a good idea. I will sometimes hunt on a river and a dog can't swim upstream against the current after it picks up a mark. Obviously your dog needs to be taught that getting out early is OK in this scenerio.

The fact is, anyone can get a dog to go out and run around like a crazy animal for 10 minutes and pick up birds. Our goal is to teach them how to do it in the safest, most efficient manner possible. That means running straight in and straight out......most of the time.

Rainmaker..."There are a few simple reasons why a straight line to a mark is often times a better option than letting your dog run wherever it wants. The practical hunting scenerio would be if you shoot a bird and the easiest way to bird might be good cover that could hold more birds. By not taking a straight line, your "smart dog" chooses his own way to the bird and busts other birds that you are unable to shoot. Thats a practical real world scenario."

That, of course, is an upland issue whereas I was referring to "bank running" as it applies to water marks...and I certainly don't let my dogs run "wherever they want"....only wherever makes sense (to me and the dog)



While your point is a good one, I guess I've been blessed with outstanding marking dogs...and spend a LOT of time developing that skill. On land, my dogs go STRAIGHT through whatever cover is in front of them. In fact, I can't even remember seeing anyone else's dog that I've hunted with "running around like a crazy animal for 10 minutes"...on a MARKED retrieve.


Furthermore, it is just as likely that there are birds holding ALONG the straight line to the mark as there might be off to one side or the other of that line. Actually, after hearing the hunters and dogs bashing through the cover and the BOOM of the gun...the pheasants I hang out with are probably in the next COUNTY so busting them up on something other than an exact straight line to a mark 35 yards out isn't an issue in my experience.



Moreover...if the fall happens 150 yards out...say on a wounded bird that flies quite a way before giving up the ghost, there would be an increased likelihood of other birds getting busted up even as the dog proceeds on a direct straight line to the fall.


I hunt upland at least 90% of the time and have generally been duck hunting in relatively open water areas and don't duck hunt with more than 2 other guns...ever. Just not my thing. So, as a result, I think I've seen maybe 3 TRUE blind retrieves in my life...in actual hunting. Hey...I KNOW that dyed-in-the-wool Green Head guys (and girls) will laugh their heads off at that but I am happy to bring joy into people's lives!!! (-:



But whenever I've shot a pheasant that hits nearby water...which happens with some frequency, my dogs can...and I think SHOULD...shorten the distance and efficiency of the retrieve by running the bank to create the shortest swim possible and I never have nor ever will train a dog to do anything else...regardless of Hunt Test rules.



If avoiding training on "cheating the bank" means that Cody doesn't get to the highest Test levels...I'm OK with that. In fact, without ANY intention to offend anyone's sensibilities...the very thought of having a dog take a straight line on a mark that falls at a severe angle to a shoreline...and swim 75 yards when he could run the bank for 60 yards and swim 15 yards is just not something I intend to train for.



I can just HEAR the dog's thoughts....."I can't IMAGINE why the HELL he makes me do this but I guess I have to humor the poor dumb SOB!!!!" (-:


Just my 2 cents and from my own experience and preferences.


Regards,
Jim

Agree to disagree Jim.

As for not seeing peoples dogs run around all over the place looking for birds, I guess your just lucky to hunt with good dogs and good handlers. I've been in the field with more bad dogs than good ones.

One question though. Why bother running tests if you don't train your dog to handle the requirements of the test?

Rainmaker..."One question though. Why bother running tests if you don't train your dog to handle the requirements of the test?"

I've only run Cody in the JH Tests under AKC rules. I am aware of no JH Test rule requiring dogs to take a direct line...necessarily...to the MARK. In fact, in the general rules pertaining to JH, SH and MH titles, Rule 5 states...



"When ordered to retrieve, a dog shall
proceed quickly and eagerly on land or into the water to
marked falls, or on the line given it by its handler on falls
it has not seen. A dog shall not disturb too much ground
or area and should respond quickly and obediently to any
further directions its handler might give."


So, the rule says "quickly and eagerly"...not DIRECTLY. As for "not disturbing too much ground", I suppose bank running could be considered "too much ground" but in my limited experience (2 hunt tests) the rule about making the 4 marks "relatively simple" was adhered to and on the water marks, the dogs were nearly at the shoreline and the birds fell 70 yards or so dead ahead so bank running was never an issue.



In addition, as I stated, I do train Cody to go directly to a LAND MARK and may well....if I feel like it...decide to work him next spring/summer on swim bys and angle entries such that he does take a straight line on water marks. I just haven't decided how far I'll go on that at this time.


But to answer your question directly...in the JH I have not seen and don't expect to see set ups that would encourage the "fault" of bank running...but if I ever get into a Test level that fails a dog FOR SURE...due to bank running AND if I haven't decided to condition him to avoid bank running....then that will be the end of our Hunt Test adventures.


Just to reiterate, I go duck hunting relatively infrequently and mostly in open water situations....or jump shooting* so bank running just isn't much of an issue for me.

* Re: jump shooting...most of that around here is done on rivers and irrigation canals and no one will EVER see me require a dog to take a direct line into flowing water and "chase" the duck downstream. Rather, I would EXPECT AND ENCOURAGE him to run the bank until he got at least perpendicular to the duck in flowing water before entry. And Cody would do that anyway because it would be the smartest thing for him to do.



And if you'll forgive a little bragging...in Cody's first JH pass the water marks were across flowing water to the opposite shore where the birds fall. EACH ONE of the 8 or 9 dogs running before Cody thought they were "swimming straight" but were actually being carried by the current at 25 yards down stream. When they got to the opposite shore, each one of them had to "hunt"...sometimes for a minute or so....to find the duck.


But Cody KNEW where, on the opposite shore the mark was and made 4 or 5 "upstream corrections" which got him to the opposite shore smack AT the location of the duck. When he delivered to hand and I was taking him off the line, the judge said...."Jim I hope you realize how talented your dog is." That made my day, week, month and YEAR!!!

(-:


Regards,
Jim

So which is it?

I never have nor ever will train a dog to do anything else...regardless of Hunt Test rules.

and

swim 75 yards when he could run the bank for 60 yards and swim 15 yards is just not something I intend to train for

OR? One day later.

if I feel like it...decide to work him next spring/summer on swim bys and angle entries such that he does take a straight line on water marks. I just haven't decided how far I'll go on that at this time.

Test rules and field trials are set up with a degree of difficulty because most dogs can go get the chickens. Its how they do it that shows teamwork, ability to learn, and a willingness to do the difficult thing instead of the easy thing.

And again, straight running dogs mark better.

And what this has to do with repositioning after the flush I have no idea. geeash

Oh WOW Rainmaker. You CAUGHT me fair and square. YES...I did say "never" but then said..."If I feel like it...just haven't decided how far I'll go."



Please note that I am now hanging my head in shame. But I'll get over it in...oh...about 2 nanoseconds. (-:



And with respect to your question as to what this all has to do with repositioning....NOTHING!!!! I WAS RESPONDING TO YOUR QUESTION..." Why bother running tests if you don't train your dog to handle the requirements of the test?"


"a willingness to do the difficult thing instead of the easy thing."



I'm OK with that but not with doing the stupid thing when the easy thing is smarter. I have made it very clear that I am new to the Hunt Test game and am not sure whether I will continue with it. I MIGHT (not saying WILL) just get the CPR and let it go at that....which is the choice that the vast majority of HUNTING dog owners make.



"And again, straight running dogs mark better."



Nope. The dog has MARKED BEFORE it starts running...straight or otherwise. You MIGHT argue that a straight running dog will not forget the AREA OF FALL as readily as a dog who doesn't go straight to it but such a theme has nothing to do with this discussion. We were discussing MARKS in open water. IF the dog runs the bank it is because A) he can bloody well SEE the duck and is merely using his BRAINS TO GET IT AS QUICKLY AND EFFICIENTLY as possible.



Remember...we have been discussion MARKS not BLINDS. I have ZERO problem with building "teamwork" with the dog and getting him to do difficult things....for the purpose of BLIND retrieves. THAT is when the dog must do exactly what you instruct it to. You do know the difference between marked and blind retrieves don't you????


GEESH!



And why do you have to get all snotty????????

I've read enough of your rediculous, argumentative posts. If you look back at your thread history, you personally have caused more threads to go of topic and end in an a discussion 180 degrees from where the original poster wanted to go.

This thread for example. Repositioning after a flush. Only someone who runs tests needs to respond to this thread. Who cares if your dog repositions if your just hunting? So in your vast wisdom and experience you decided to agree with someone (who also doesn't run tests) and explain why you think test rules in general don't make sense to you. Great. We get it.

I really enjoy coming on to this site and learning how good trainers and handlers work their dogs. For me personally you have added way too many minutes of worthless reading. So I'm done. See you guys this test season. Good luck and good training.

Maybe we need an Arguments Forum. You know one that is just for disagreeable posts and stupid arguments.

Posted By Rainmaker on 11 Jan 2012 06:00 PM
I've read enough of your rediculous, argumentative posts. If you look back at your thread history, you personally have caused more threads to go of topic and end in an a discussion 180 degrees from where the original poster wanted to go.

This thread for example. Repositioning after a flush. Only someone who runs tests needs to respond to this thread. Who cares if your dog repositions if your just hunting? So in your vast wisdom and experience you decided to agree with someone (who also doesn't run tests) and explain why you think test rules in general don't make sense to you. Great. We get it.

I really enjoy coming on to this site and learning how good trainers and handlers work their dogs. For me personally you have added way too many minutes of worthless reading. So I'm done. See you guys this test season. Good luck and good training.

That's really a pretty sad...incorrect and entirely uncalled for post. What follows is proof THAT YOU TOOK YOUR OWN THREAD WAY OFF TOPIC.

YOU were responding the Jere's remarks re: bank running....AND SO WAS I.

What follows is what YOU wrote in YOUR OWN THREAD about "repositioning!!!!!" The FACTS sometimes hurt...don't they? )-:

"There are a few simple reasons why a straight line to a mark is often times a better option than letting your dog run wherever it wants. The practical hunting scenerio would be if you shoot a bird and the easiest way to bird might be good cover that could hold more birds. By not taking a straight line, your "smart dog" chooses his own way to the bird and busts other birds that you are unable to shoot. Thats a practical real world scenerio. However, the real reason why you want to teach your dog to run a line and hold it to a fall is because a dog that runs straight to the fall, more often than not, marks much better than if it takes a looping or bank running route. This is proven over and over again when a smart judge throws a good mark that will lead a dog out of sight or in to the fall of another bird if a straight line isn't taken. I see marking as the most important tool in a dogs toolbox. In my experience and all the high level trainers I've spoken with, dogs that run straight lines pick up more marks than dogs that try to do ith their way. There are of course times when a straight line isn't a good idea. I will sometimes hunt on a river and a dog can't swim upstream against the current after it picks up a mark. Obviously your dog needs to be taught that getting out early is OK in this scenerio. The fact is, anyone can get a dog to go out and run around like a crazy animal for 10 minutes and pick up birds. Our goal is to teach them how to do it in the safest, most efficient manner possible. That means running straight in and straight out......most of the time."

PS: Rainmaker. You referred to my post history. How about YOURS! 68 posts since 2008 and most of them merely asked questions. You have CONTRIBUTED very little to this forum in YEARS. At least I'm trying and I am certainly not making up bashes about others taking threads off topic...when the TRUTH is that in almost all cases, I was replying to other OT posts INCLUDING YOURS IN YOUR OWN THREAD!!!

If you can point out wherever I INITIATED an OT issue...more than once or twice out of all my posts...or wherever I INITIATED anything other than a reasonably polite remark directed towards another poster, I will apologize PROFUSELY!

I can and HAVE already pointed out where YOU were not commenting truthfully about my posts...such as accusing me of derailing a thread WHEN I WAS IN FACT REPLYING TO YOUR OT QUESTIONS

So please go ahead and point out as many of my posts that have got your shorts in a bunch as you can...and if they are TRUE (unlike at least one of your accusations)I will definitely apologize very sincerely.

If you can't, or won't, then maybe you owe me an apology
Jim

To Rainmaker....I've had some time to cool down and my bottom line take is that we probably shouldn't be communicating directly with each other. On that score, this will be my last post directed specifically to you...unless you ask me a direct question or comment about any of my posts.



But you wrote..."I've read enough of your rediculous, argumentative posts."



That was a direct insult which is something I've not engaged in regarding you or initiated to anyone else on this forum. Insulting posts are a violation of the letter and spirit of this forum's rules. When people "lose their cool" and let the insults fly, integrity and the best interests of this forum would be served by withdrawing such insults.



Just IMHO


Jim