Art sent you a PM

There are breeders who are breeding with the right goals in mind, its not just if the dog points either( lots of dogs point) its if its good enough to produce wild birds over points.
Ask your breeders what kind of birds they hunt and how often, if they expect the dog to point wild birds and how they handle a busted bird- shoot it, let it fly, etc.Read between the lines and you might find your answers.

What I look for is a breeder that puts health screenings at the top of their list. I don't care how good the dogs are in the field, or marsh if they are not sound breeding stock.
Way too many breeders are still only doing part of the health screening that is available for Labs. I wouldn't consider any breeder that has not determined that their breeding stock is clear from producing ANY pup with EIC, CNM, PRA, has good or better hips and elbows and has up to date eye cerf.

Once that is taken care of, then you can look at the breeders goals, short and long term and the goals they have for each breeding. You can then evaluate the breeders choices for breeding, what are each dog's strengths and weaknesses, should the pairing help to offset any weakness in the dogs and is the breeding a repeat breeding? Check references and watch the dogs work and their offspring work if you can.

There are great breeders, good breeders and some that have not figured it all out yet, or are primarily just after the money PLs can generate. Talk to as many people as you can, make a list of your priorities for this pup, both inside your house/family and out in the field and measure each potential breeding against your priorities. Share your priorities with each breeder you talk with, and talk to as many owners as possible. You will find the breeder and litter for your needs, it is worth the effort!
Best of luck with your search and decision.
Pat

Art, those are all great questions, but I suspect critical answers will prove difficult to obtain.

Point is not a "standard" behavior characteristic in Labrador retrievers. No one knows for sure where it came from in the few individuals of the general population, but it is there at a small level. Point can be rather convincingly simulated by training, especially in a dog as tractable as the general Labrador retriever. This can be done well enough to fool judges at tests! No one knows to what extent such practices result in dogs titled as pointing Labs. These facts make selection of a litter rather problematic unless one has intimate knowledge of the breeders' practices and the training parents have been subjected to.

In a breed such as the LR, where point is not all that common, the basic laws of genetics determine how one might go about enhancing the frequency of point in a "line" of dogs over time. Since the name of this game is to preserve the LR rather than produce a new breed, breeders are not allowed to outcross to some other breed to infuse point into their breeding stock. That leaves only one systematic choice - the line breeding of individuals, sometimes closely related, which exhibit point and ruthlessly cull from the progeny those which do not (this doesn't necessarily mean euthanize or neuter them - it does mean they should not be sold as "pointing Labs.")

Of the kazillion or more PL "Kennels" which advertise here and in places such as Gundog magazine or not at all I know of only two, perhaps three, kennels which have long term line breeding programs. Neither advertises here.

Your best bet, if you really want point in a Labrador, is to get a pup from one of the breeders most likely to be producing them, get a money back guarantee to include cost of training, and send the pup to someone who has worked with PLs and pointing breed dogs extensively using methods very unlikely to produce point in a dog not genetically programmed to do so (I can give you one, maybe two references but neither may be willing to take the 8 week old puppy.) for the several months it may take to determine whether the dog has any real potential as a pointer. A breeder's guarantee of point is of little value if you take a pup into your home and become attached to it before you know it will point. I doubt there are many out there in which point onsets (tech-speak for begins) as early as 8 weeks regularly. Even an early exhibition of a behavior that looks like a point may, in fact, turn out to have been something else and finding and maintaining a manageable balance between the drive to capture and the pointing behavior could prove more than the average owner is capable of.

I can be reached at Jere_Murray at Yahoo dot com or through the Yahoo Group at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pointing_Labradors/

Good luck in your quest.

Jere

What Jere said.


In addition, I would like to give a shout out to Snake River Pointing Labradors (Google it) owned and operated by the Fowler family in S.E. Idaho.They advertise on this site.


My PL...Cody came from their line and he's an outstanding dog and the Fowlers are just really outstanding people with TONS of PL breeding/training experience to their credit.


One way to massively upwardly adjust the "odds" that your bitch WILL hunt and WILL point is to consider a "started dog" of maybe 6 months of age. I KNOW that people like to "bond" with 8 wk old puppies and that is great. But I've seen SO many "Dogs with Jobs" episodes and read other reports of dogs going to new owners at MUCH older than a few months and who TOTALLY BOND with their new owners to NOT be very worried about the bonding process. Even ABUSED dogs can and do make it as highly talented "service dogs."


I owned the "world's greatest Springer Spaniel (in my opinion) (-: and bought him as a 14 month old started dog and we were TOTALLY and UTTERLY bonded. He was a GREAT hunter and sat on my feet every day in my office!!


Plus, he didn't attempt to eat all our furniture as my other puppy dogs have done...with quite a bit of success I might add. (-:


But I think if you are willing to give up the joys and TRIBULATIONS of weeks old puppies...and want to SIGNIFICANTLY upwardly adjust the odds of getting a really talented pointer/hunter, then going the started dog route could be a good way to go.


I suppose there would be the caveat that a "started dog" might be one that the breeder couldn't get rid of as a puppy...or kept as a possible breeding candidate but didn't make the cut. That would be my biggest concern.


However, that would be a ZERO factor with the Fowler's kennel. They are GREAT people and wouldn't dream of "dumping" some numb skull dog on you or anyone else.


Another option to avoid "getting taken" would be to hire a local trainer to go visit the dog and watch it work. You would spend considerably more money on a started dog than a puppy due to room and board and training costs that go into such dogs so paying a local trainer to go check the dog out for you would be an incidental expense.


Finally, I assume that there are APLA pointing tests in New England and attending some of those would give you a BIG heads up. If I were you, I would travel to such a Test event if there wasn't one near me.


GOOD LUCK!!!

Jim

Titles might (or might not) mean a lot.
Look to a breeder who is "into" pedigrees and abilities of breeder dogs (and maybe grandparents).



.

As Jere mentions there are not many out there that are doing long-term line breeding programs. I dont think most have the stomach for true, close, line breeding programs. Genetic combinations are a crazy thing that I dont pretend to understand. I know people who are consistently producing good dogs and very few brain damaged dogs. They breed by selecting complementing traits and using very good breeding stock. How much is the actual trait match and how much of the success is combining good breeding stock? I have no idea. I am not a breeder. Repeat breedings certainly show you what has worked in the past although I know pointer guys that swear that each repeat seems to loose something. I have no rationale for that but just threw it out to show how many opinions are out there.

I actually go on the mind set that most of that dog's demonstrated genetic potential is going to come from its parents and grandparents. You should be able to easily make an independent determination of those two generations. Again, just my opinion but I figure a pup out of parents and grandparents that demonstrated (you can verify) their talent, health and work ethic is a pretty good bet. Kennel breeders are great for lots of reasons but dont overlook some of the phenominal litters by the people who happened to luck into the dog of a lifetime and are breeding her. Titles are not everything but it does mean that the dog(s) worked several times in front of other people and those people were able to see them so you shoud be able to find some opinions on the work of the parents and grandparents if they are titled.

Make sure your pup is coming from parents and grandparents that demonstrate the traits that you are looking for.  Good Luck!

I totally agree that titles aren't everything. In fact, a very small percentage of dogs...even those out of highly titled bloodlines, ever even COMPETE in title competitions...let alone get the titles.


Of course, the problem is that the odds are very low that any potential owner is going to know that a brilliant but untitled dog is going to be bred to a brilliant but untitled bitch. Therefore, titles may be the only reasonable way for most of us to find offspring that we might want to own.


As far as a tendency for successive litters from the same parents going down hill...I really doubt that and wouldn't believe it unless I saw utterly scientific research on that subject...which I doubt exists.


I doubt it because, if the proof is in the pudding...and the "pudding" is the accomplishments of the offspring...then we get back to the TRUTH that a very small percentage of offspring ever compete in title competitions and therefore, there is no scientific way to judge the successive litters.


All we would have is a pool of X% of the offspring who earned titles and ZERO information about the majority of the litter mates who were never campaigned. That dynamic would virtually ruin the ability to reach any scientific conclusions.


So, all we're left to do is buy our tickets and take our rides. Having said that...if the PRIME goal of the buyer is to end up with a dog that HUNTS well instead of one who can win Field Trials then I would think the odds are HUGE that an offspring from highly titled parents well fully realize our goals.


But if ending up with a dog who can run tricked out triple blinds (in 50 years of duck hunting, I've never even experienced an ACTUAL double blind retrieve)* then it's a different story.

* Where do people who actually face triple blinds in a real world hunt go to hunt???? Amazon JUNGLES???? (-:


I suppose if there is one dog...4 hunters and TONS of ducks flying by then a lot of blinds could happen but I've never been on such a hunt and probably would decline any such invitation.

(-:

So, let's take a poll.


How many of you (and how many times) have you ever had to send your dogs out on triple BLIND retrieves in your HUNTING lives???


Me....ZERO in 50 years.

Posted By av84fun on 07 Dec 2011 02:56 PM


How many of you (and how many times) have you ever had to send your dogs out on triple BLIND retrieves in your HUNTING lives???


Me....ZERO in 50 years.

Really??? When my dog is concealed and I am hunting with multiple guns the dog may not see a mark all day. A triple blind is nothing but 3 blinds- if dog can do one blind, dog can do the deadly triple blind scenario you speak of. In my word Duck hunting is done with the finished dog(or at least with one on stand-by) if you want the best chances at recovery.

I'd say a dog that can consistantly mark three and even four birds down then run a tuff blind, then come back and remember and run those marks, is a dog I might want to hunt behind and think of pups from ! (and thats just picking up the ducks)....
Upland ? I want a producer, with bird savvy, that can handle wild birds, and more.
Most the titled dogs I know are hunted as much as the meat dogs I know, FWIW.

So  a pedigree with real world hunters as parents, that has some performance titles. They aren't exclusive of each other lots of dogs do the games and are smack down hunters.

Posted By av84fun on 07 Dec 2011 02:56 PM
How many of you (and how many times) have you ever had to send your dogs out on triple BLIND retrieves in your HUNTING lives???


Me....ZERO in 50 years.

7 blinds from two guns unloading at ducks is my record.

* Where do people who actually face triple blinds in a real world hunt go to hunt???? Amazon JUNGLES???? (-:

Actually in a couple of swamp/wetland areas between Rochester and Warsaw IN.  There are maybe 2-3 times a year including our opening waterfowl weekend where we my dogs may be the only ones to support 8 or so hunters.  Depending on what beaver dam or clump of trees I am hunting out of they may only get to actually visually mark a few of the birds shot around me (4 or 5 a day).    Around mid-morning when the action slows down I take whichever one I have out and go clean up the areas of the other hunters which are spread over 3 or 4 other blind locations. 

Those two dogs easily run over 20 blind retrieves the first day, sometimes close to that again on Sunday of opening weekend.  It is a marsh grass filled, silt bottom swamp.  They have a hard time even seeing me and somtimes they have to crawl up on beaver dams to take my casts.  Then when they get to the area of fall they are put in "hunt mode" to either produce the duck or track down a cripple in the duck's element.  It is impressive to watch them go through multiple recent fall areas and swim/crawl through marsh grass to get back to an area of fall that they did not mark - werent even in the area when the bird was shot.  I regularly even have to send them on the same line multiple times in a row then change direction to a different fall at various points.  Keep in mind a dog's "test training" is to never to run the same line twice. 

By the way, I do not put an e-collar, or any collar on my dogs when duck hunting.  I dont want them to get caught up in grass or twigs and drown.  I have witnessed dogs get in serious trouble when vines or submerged branches got caught in their collar.  Besides, why would you need to correct your dog in that environment? That is the place for teamwork and trust.  If you need to use an e-collar on your dog to get them to do that work, then either a. you have not properly trained them for it or b. the dog is not capable of it (usually a. is the problem-subject for another discussion)

Much of this is in direct conflict with test/trial expectations on blinds but the work they do is WAY beyond the difficulty of any test blind I have seen.  The foundation work that enabled them to learn this, however comes strait from the test training.  Advanced, Advanced (real world) handling.  People are impressed when they see it but few understand the months/years of training to get a dog to that level and I never put one of my dogs in that kind of "old fall" situation until they are are very experienced and confident in what they are doing.

Triple marks with birds exceeding 100 yards (let alone 400 quad)? No use for that in the real world.  Blind retrieves?, absolutely.  This to me IS the justification for all the advanced training work.

Gundogs get it done.

I guess my "poll" idea was a bad one. We are all creatures of our own experiences and I have almost always hunted out of blinds facing relatively open water so even though the dog might not see the fall, he can see the dead duck(s) floating out in the water so it's not a true "blind."

Or, I jump shoot.


But I am mostly an upland bird kind of guy so...again...my poll was a bad idea...and not my first by any stretch of the imagination!!!!


(-:

Jim

Not a "bad idea" we just all have different hunting styles, preferences, and opportunities. Some vary quite a bit on what they require from the dog. Its the internet. Not so many years ago we all mainly associated with people around us that hunted pretty much the same type of places and same way. Now we have people on here from all over the country and get very different perspectives.

Thanks guys, you gave me lots to think about.

Art

Well, I've taken the plunge. I have a deposit in with Bearpoint Kennel for a black bitch. I've discussed their available breeding pairs for this spring with them and hope to have my pup before May. I'm looking forward to the adventure and want to thank everyone here for their advice and insights. Wish me luck!

Art

Hi Snell,

Are you still in Port Republic NJ? You should meet up with the Navasnk River HRC. It's a NAHRA affiliated club and a nice group of people. I live in northern NJ now but I try to make it down there as many times as I can to get a group training session in. Let me know if you have any interest. Most of my friends in the club are hunters first so we train for hunting as well as tests.

Good luck!

Snell,
Congrats on the upcoming puppy. Grab on, hold on tight and enjoy the ride it's a hell of a fun ride! Good luck!

Shaun

Buyer beware. Do your homework. Genetics will give you the best opportunity, but nothing is guaranteed with living things.
I think there are a lot more Labs with point than anyone knows. Many arent even hunted in the upland, particularly the field trial stock that are the foundation for most breedings, but look how many solid pointing labs come directly out of FC AFC pairings with MH females.

Also, Reader beware. Many of the most vocal posters on this site, and the ones who consistently post on the current state of the pointing lab, have the least amount of experience with the current state of the pointing lab. The statements that few kennels are producing pointing labradors while a kazillion dont are based on no actual knowledge of the current dogs being produced by different pointing lab breeders. You would frankly need to see numerous dogs from a great deal of the breeders available (like a HT judge) to make that kind of observation. Also those that do not attend hunt tests are the ones making the argument that a dog can be trained to stand game. Because something is possible, doesnt make it probable. Again, they aren't attending HTs, aren't seeing dogs preform, they are just throwing out biased and unsupported opinions.

As regards to minimizing the capabilities of an Advanced trained retriever, I wholeheartedly disagree. While the importance may fall down the list if you are an upland hunter only, a dog with good marking, memory to do quads, trainability to do blineds at 10X what you see on an average hunt are all must haves for a breeding I would select. Duck hunting in my area, with good fellow duck hunters who only target greenheads routinely result in marked triples. Depending on hunting location(boat blind, field, layout blind etc) may or may result in the dog being able to do what is preferred and that is to mark these birds down. Hunted a pit blind where Rid just couldnt get in a place where he could see. He had to sit at my feet and wait patiently till I could hoist him out. That morning I ran 5 triple blinds, 2 doubles and one quin for the 24 bird limit for the blind. That was just one day this season. Granted I am a hardcore waterfowler but if you duck hunt there are few that would decline to hunt over an HRCH or MH titled dog. They can just flat get anything you can ask of them on a duck hunt. (steady, marks and blinds)

Look for genetic potential. Find parents you like. Even better if you have an idea what the grand parents are like. Select not only a breeder but a particular pairing

Make a list. What is important to you. Ask the breeder to give you their honest grading of the dogs in the pairing on a scale of 1-10 in the areas that are important to you.
Ask what they are attempting to improve or get out of the pairing. Are they mixing a dog with a 10 point, with lower trainability and drive with an 8 point but higher trainabiltiy and drive to get X?