Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 06 Oct 2011 07:20 AM |
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Not too long ago, Nami & I were talking to a couple APLA Judges, and the topic rolled around to having a PL make some of the flushes............. These two judges were "scared to death" of allowing a PL to flush  We went on to explain that in both HRC Upland Tests and in the NAHRA upland portion, the rules say that the dog must make the flush, and that when we Grouse hunt, there are ocassions where it would be impossible for a human to make the bird flush, so we have the dogs flush the bird. These two fellas were extremely concerned that it would turn a PL into a flusher. Seems to me that if a dog is truly a solid pointing dog, that being afraid to have a dog sometimes FLUSH ON COMMAND shows a lack of the handler's confidence in the dog (or it's training). BTW, we do not teach Whoa to our dogs. Kinda like teaching a dog to pick up decoys on command (right Julie?). Now it's true that we've only trained two Labs that point, but we've never had a problem of turning a Lab that points into a Lab that flushes. Opinions ? . |
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Justin
New Member
Posts:44
Central WI
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| 06 Oct 2011 09:12 AM |
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I can see both sides of this coin. There are definitely times when what you would do for hunting and hunt testing don't line up. IMO this is one of those examples. I too sometimes have my dog flush a bird after it is on point for both ruffed grouse in really thick woods and for phesant when you can't seem to dig them out. Last year I was hesitant with my younger dog who I had planned to run in hunt tests this year. However there were a few times I had to send her and my older dog in after brids they pointed and at least for my two dogs it has not in any way caused them to stop pointing and start flushing. I still get rock solid points on wild and planted birds. But every dog is different. That being said, I do not do this in training and do not plan to. But.... I'll be darned if I am going to spend all this time and money training my hunting dog to not have it produce more birds for me!! Just my 3 cents from an amatuer trainer and avid hunter. |
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bsmiley
Veteran Member
Posts:1063
Fishers Indiana
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| 06 Oct 2011 01:22 PM |
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I think that makes a more complete gun dog. I have only screwed up (I mean "trained") my own dogs and limited amounts for some friends so take this for what it is worth.
I have them retrieve duck decoys when I am finished hunting.
We play tug of war with a big rope (two of my dogs favorite game)
I DO NOT throw sticks for them to retrieve or let them play with training equipment as a toy.
RE: commanded flush - my first dog would not do it reliably. I could sort of get him to do it on pen birds but never on wild birds. I acutally had a thread on the other forum describing my efforts and Jere gave me some training documents to teach it but it just got to the point where i realized that it may actually require pressure to get him to break point and I was not about to do that. I have fond memories of being on the other side of a barbed wire fence in a slough trying to get him to flush the bird he was pointing 20 feet from me.. "fetch!, "git em up!", "Cody!..fetch it up" but he was off in bird point lala land.
Yeager, my savant, for all his flaws is an expert at this. I have sent him (off a point) into heavy cover to flush a bird out and he will follow it and sit on my shot to be realeased. That is cool. It does not effect his point.
Cruz, I held off the comanded flush till he had his GMPR (actually his 3X). Last year I let him flush a few wild birds that were really dug in. After some initial confusion about what I wanted, he was down with the flush thing. I hunt him steady WSF on pointed birds and I did find that after I let him flush the first few he got the idea he needed to "help" me find others when I did not realease him and became quite the little hen snatcher on the next few birds :-). That was easily corrected with a steady reminder as I was putting the bird up. It usually never gets to that point on wild birds because most of the time the bird is gone on the approach anyway - has to be the right conditions. Now I have regularly had him doing a commanded flush (post point) in heavy cover and stopping to the flush.
I have mentioned before that I hunt mostly with pointer guys. They absolutely cringe when I send the dog in to flush after a point. But hey, some of their dogs dont retrieve either.
It is a great tool to have in the bag when you need it. Not something I would do all the time. It has not been detrimental to my dogs steadiness but I am sure that would depend heavily on the dog and what they have experienced. I would personally not want to do this with a dog that is still learning bird manners. |
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Cruz, 4XGMPR HRCH MH ("CAT 6")
Yeager, MPR HR (Master Pointing Lap Dog)
Cody, 2XGMPR, MH (BAMF,RIP Friend)
Runnin',Gunnin' & Pickin' Up the Chickens!
www.browngundogs.com
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Liv2Hnt
Advanced Member
Posts:501
Overland Park, KS
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| 06 Oct 2011 08:14 PM |
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As Bruce mentioned, its not just PL guys that have concerns about having a pointing dog flush. I did it with my last dog. I limited it to as few scenarios as possible as it is in direct contrast to what you want them to do, point naturally and hold the point until the gunner moves in to gun range.
I wouldnt call it a lack of confidence to not allowing your dog to break point and flush the bird, just as I dont let my dog break at the line to retrieve, the more black and white / consistent you are the better performance you are going to get out of the dog. If its not necessary for your hunting style and you want a consistently steady on point and especially if you want want steady to wing and shot, I would avoid doing this.
Coming from a traditional pointer background, I always chuckle at the position taken by some in the PL community that teaching a dog whoa has a negative implication or somehow has some increased validation for the natural point. All of the EPs, GSPs, English and Irish setters that I have ever worked with were taught to whoa. Steadiness on point whether conditioned through dechase, whoa breaking or bird conditioning all accomplishes the same thing. The dog has to learn that once it establishes a point naturally that its not supposed to go anywhere as long as the bird is still there.
I know I can trust my dogs in the upland to be out of sight, point and hold birds. Part of that trust stems from the fact that we have set that standard of steadiness on point and steadiness to wing and shot. I dont have to say anything in the upland field at this point and we can move from bird to bird, but I still give him a soft whoa every once in a while as I move in for the flush.........as much to calm me down as to assure him that he is being a good boy. |
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| Edward McNally
Amateur trainer/ owner/ rookie handler of:
4 X GMPR HRCH McNally's Right Stuff Ridley (5 MH Passes) |
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Trout Bum
Advanced Member
Posts:530
Elbert County, CO
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| 07 Oct 2011 07:45 AM |
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Good post Ed. It would be difficult or nearly imposible to get the pointers I owned to flush. |
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Rainmaker
New Member
Posts:73
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| 07 Oct 2011 06:17 PM |
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To me, hunting and testing are two different things.
In the field on wild birds, having a dog that points and flushes on command is a great tool. The job is to get the bird in your vest and if the dog going in after the bird helps to that end, then great.
At a test, the job is to pass the test. It would stink to pay the premium, drive 10 hours and have your dog go in to flush on command and you get the bumb luck of having a hen so buried under thick cover that she can't fly.
Tests are not a place to prove how many tricks my dog can do. I want her to do the required work and get the ribbon.
Do you let your dog flush the bird on command at a test? |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 07 Oct 2011 06:59 PM |
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Posted By Rainmaker on 07 Oct 2011 06:17 PM
Do you let your dog flush the bird on command at a test?
In the HRC Upland Test and the Upland portion if NAHRA, I have to.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Rainmaker
New Member
Posts:73
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| 20 Oct 2011 08:05 PM |
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In NAHRA and HRC most of the time a box is used and your dog has no chance to catch the bird. And even if it did there wouldn't be a penalty.
If your dog catches a bird in a Master test in the APLA, thank you for your donation.
So with that being the case, why would anyone let their dog flush the bird in the upland portion of an APLA Master test? |
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| MHR-II 2.5XGMPR Texas Pointing Labs Storm's Chance of Rain "Rain" |
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bsmiley
Veteran Member
Posts:1063
Fishers Indiana
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| 21 Oct 2011 06:38 AM |
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It is permissable, specifically, under APLA master rules for the dog to catch the bird if they are sent to flush. I have never used a commanded flush in a test nor have I seen one used when I have judged. Most people's concerns are that you are allowing the dog to potentially grab a bird when you have more field to run (more bird contacts coming up). Also keep in mind that the dog needs to be steady (stop) if the bird takes wing - stop (point)... go (flush) ... stop (steady wing). Most dogs are not exposed to that in training. |
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Cruz, 4XGMPR HRCH MH ("CAT 6")
Yeager, MPR HR (Master Pointing Lap Dog)
Cody, 2XGMPR, MH (BAMF,RIP Friend)
Runnin',Gunnin' & Pickin' Up the Chickens!
www.browngundogs.com
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hooligan
Veteran Member
Posts:1346
Pac NW
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| 21 Oct 2011 08:03 AM |
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Posted By bsmiley on 21 Oct 2011 06:38 AM
It is permissable, specifically, under APLA master rules for the dog to catch the bird if they are sent to flush.
It IS? Really? |
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CPR Max's Black Diamond Girl Scout JH "Scout" |
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bsmiley
Veteran Member
Posts:1063
Fishers Indiana
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| 21 Oct 2011 05:37 PM |
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Yes, no kidding. See MPR rules under "point"
"Throughout the Upland hunt, a dog that actually willfully catches birds (except after a command to flush a successfully pointed bird) will be failed, unless it is determined by the judges that the bird flushed directly into the dogs face or that after being flushed the bird stayed in close proximity to the dog on point and was incapable of flight or other extraordinary circumstances existed."
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Cruz, 4XGMPR HRCH MH ("CAT 6")
Yeager, MPR HR (Master Pointing Lap Dog)
Cody, 2XGMPR, MH (BAMF,RIP Friend)
Runnin',Gunnin' & Pickin' Up the Chickens!
www.browngundogs.com
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Rainmaker
New Member
Posts:73
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| 09 Nov 2011 09:35 PM |
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Wow, I've been under the wrong impression this whole time. Thanks for the clarification Bruce.
I thought I was dropped once for Rain catching a bird after the 10 seconds but maybe my memory is failing me and the she never got the 10 count.
Thanks again for clearing that up.
Chris |
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| MHR-II 2.5XGMPR Texas Pointing Labs Storm's Chance of Rain "Rain" |
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bsmiley
Veteran Member
Posts:1063
Fishers Indiana
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| 10 Nov 2011 05:20 AM |
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Just to be clear Chris, the dog would normally be disqualified ANY time it chatches a bird in the Master upland field.
The exception is if the judges have indicated the 10 count is completed AND you have [intentionally] sent the dog in to flush the bird. I would make very sure the judges understood that you were sending the dog to flush so there is no confusion. I would hate to be in a position as a judge or handler where the dog was sent to flush, grabbed the bird and the judges did not understand it was the handlers intent to send the dog in. I would suggest telling the judges before you enter the field you may do this, and then telling them again before you do it and making the flush command something they hear. Just a little CYA on something that could be confusing.
If the judges cant easily know you are commanding a flush, then I would expect to be DQ'd if the dog catches the bird. |
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Cruz, 4XGMPR HRCH MH ("CAT 6")
Yeager, MPR HR (Master Pointing Lap Dog)
Cody, 2XGMPR, MH (BAMF,RIP Friend)
Runnin',Gunnin' & Pickin' Up the Chickens!
www.browngundogs.com
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Paco
Advanced Member
Posts:856
On a trout stream in NW, MI.
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| 10 Nov 2011 05:42 PM |
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Posted By bsmiley on 21 Oct 2011 05:37 PM
Yes, no kidding. See MPR rules under "point"
"Throughout the Upland hunt, a dog that actually willfully catches birds (except after a command to flush a successfully pointed bird) will be failed, unless it is determined by the judges that the bird flushed directly into the dogs face or that after being flushed the bird stayed in close proximity to the dog on point and was incapable of flight or other extraordinary circumstances existed."
third try, this site is so defunct, I give up, had the post of a lifetime (very funny), but gone to cyberspace again.... |
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Outlaw Upland~Waterfowl Labs
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 06 Dec 2011 02:57 PM |
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Posted By Paco on 10 Nov 2011 05:42 PM
this site is so defunct, I give up, had the post of a lifetime (very funny), but gone to cyberspace again....
I LIKE it that there are relatively few posters here because most of them REALLY know what they're talking about.
For me, it's quality and not quantity and we really get there HERE!!
I've tried RTF...successfully registered but have not been "cleared to post" in spite of having attempted to contact the site moderators several times.
(-:
Jim |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 07 Dec 2011 12:42 AM |
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Posted By av84fun on 06 Dec 2011 02:57 PM
Posted By Paco on 10 Nov 2011 05:42 PM
this site is so defunct, I give up, had the post of a lifetime (very funny), but gone to cyberspace again....
I LIKE it that there are relatively few posters here because most of them REALLY know what they're talking about.
For me, it's quality and not quantity and we really get there HERE!!
I've tried RTF...successfully registered but have not been "cleared to post" in spite of having attempted to contact the site moderators several times.
(-:
Jim
Sheesh, all the action is moving to paco's Facebook page, but talk about defunct (Facebook that is)! Jere |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 07 Dec 2011 01:01 AM |
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Posted By Trout Bum on 07 Oct 2011 07:45 AM
Good post Ed. It would be difficult or nearly imposible to get the pointers I owned to flush.
It is REQUIRED of pointing breed dogs in Scandinavian countries. You might be surprised what a dog can be taught - especially a Lab. A very experienced friend once told me about an old man he knew and his setter. The dog found and pointed the birds and the man moved into position to shoot. The instant the man stopped, without any other 'command' to the dog, the dog flushed the bird like a spaniel and stopped at the flush. Then it retrieved to hand on command. Pretty cool partnership I'd say. "Whoa" is a worthless command as far as I'm concerned. All those safety arguments don't hold water if the dog is ever allowed out of sight and it has no function on birds. I'd rather my dog sit for control on blind retrieves and that's the only legitimate use of "whoa" I've ever heard presented. I'd bet money a big percentage of Labs taught "whoa" around birds do not point innately. When (if) they find the genetic basis for 'point' in dogs we can start the testing and I'll leave my winnings to my grandkids' education funds! Jere |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 07 Dec 2011 07:51 AM |
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Posted By Jere on 07 Dec 2011 01:01 AM
I'd bet money a big percentage of Labs taught "whoa" around birds do not point innately.
Jere
Jere,
I think I have to agree with you on this one.
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Paco said : "third try, this site is so defunct, I give up, had the post of a lifetime (very funny), but gone to cyberspace again...."
Paco,
I called the server for this site something else and my post got deleted (family site rules).
.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Liv2Hnt
Advanced Member
Posts:501
Overland Park, KS
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| 07 Dec 2011 08:50 PM |
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Jere bet money a big percentage of Labs taught "whoa" around birds do not point innately. When (if) they find the genetic basis for 'point' in dogs we can start the testing and I'll leave my winnings to my grandkids' education funds! Jere, I cant believe that you seriously believe that.....have spent any time reading traditional pointing training? Not to say that all historical approaches are correct, but teaching a dog to whoa has nothing to do with a point, only with holiding it. I could probably get my mom's yorkies to whoa, that doesnt mean they are pointing first, just that they are standing still. By that logic are all the Pointer FC's in history are taught to point? .... because they have all been taught whoa. |
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| Edward McNally
Amateur trainer/ owner/ rookie handler of:
4 X GMPR HRCH McNally's Right Stuff Ridley (5 MH Passes) |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 08 Dec 2011 01:40 AM |
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Posted By Liv2Hnt on 07 Dec 2011 08:50 PM
Jerebet money a big percentage of Labs taught "whoa" around birds do not point innately. When (if) they find the genetic basis for 'point' in dogs we can start the testing and I'll leave my winnings to my grandkids' education funds!
[1.] Jere, I cant believe that you seriously believe that.....
[1b.] have spent any time reading traditional pointing training? Not to say that all historical approaches are correct,
[1c.]but teaching a dog to whoa has nothing to do with a point, only with holiding it.
[1d.] I could probably get my mom's yorkies to whoa, that doesnt mean they are pointing first, just that they are standing still.
[2.] By that logic are all the Pointer FC's in history are taught to point? .... because they have all been taught whoa.
Ed,
1. Well you'd better start believing it because I do seriously believe it and will put my money where my mouth is if/when the genetics are clear and a rigorous sampling protocol can be agreed upon. I also strongly suspect the widespread use of "whoa" in training pointing dog manners on birds has been misused in the training of some lines of EPs and ESs to the extent that dogs with less than the older standard for inherited point have been bred frequently enough to have EP and ES puppies, even litters, which do not display acceptable levels of innate point begin to show up. It is a situation akin to that in US Labs vs British Labs, recently discussed elsewhere (Shooting Sportsman BB), characterized by Labs beginning to be uncomfortably common in the US that HAVE to be ff'd to achieve the mouth habits and other basic action patterns characteristic of well bred British Labs.
1b. Yes, quite a considerable period of time - starting with texts dating from as early as the first part of the 1800s to most recent years.
1c. That may be the way it should be, but unfortunately that is not the way it frequently is. The V-dog (specifically NAVHDA) people have apparently finally recognized the touchy nature of using the verbal "whoa" around birds and, I believe, have begun to discourage its use in their tests. Most of their continental dogs have a less well developed innate point than EP and ES dogs but usually higher than most PLs. They are not generally as tractable as Labs. so it is logical to suggest if it is a problem with those dogs it will be a larger problem with the more tractable Labs.
1d. I suspect the Yorkies could actually be developed to innately 'point' but wouldn't expect it to be an easy job - probably quite a bit more challenging than getting a random Lab. with no overtly displayed innate point from field lines to display innate point as Bill West did. (He later told some friends that was the hardest training job he'd ever taken on.) They might well be so far removed from their working roots today as to have lost the essential behavioral characteristics necessary but they would probably do as you say, on birds in response to scent, if trained the "whoa point" way many use.
2. This is FALSE - all Pointer FCs in history have most certainly NOT been taught to respond to a verbal "whoa." I doubt e.g. any of those finished by Bill Gibbons, Bill West, Mo Lindley and other contemporary B.W. protegés and more recent devotés of which there are quite a few were trained to respond to a verbal "whoa" in the steadying process. Some have been trained to do so AFTER being finished but only at an owner's insistence - often under the mis-guided thinking it would be useful as a safety command to prevent dog from running across busy highways or such. If you include also dogs of all pointing dog breeds as well as only "Pointers" - by which term I assume you mean those of the English variety - there have been a number of breed specific NFCs also finished w/o the use of a verbal "whoa" in the finishing training; the most recent being the newly minted ABC NFC FC Piney Run Art bred and trained by Martha Greenlee who wrote the book on the use of launchers in the West System "Training with Mo." Bill G. finished several NFC Viszlas and a NFC GWP, along with many FC pointers and undoubtedly numerous FCs of other breeds I'm not aware of. Jere |
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