It seems there are getting to be more 4 x GMPR dogs out there at younger ages. Seems a waste to not be able to showcase their talents in the APLA when they are at the top of the game. I for one am glad I was able to attend a few events and have watched some awesome dogs run that I will never be able to see again. Im wondering if maybe there should be an option for a next step. Or maybe there has to be a time to end a dogs career and 4 x is it.

It seems that people move to other clubs to keep running such as UKC and AKC where the fun so to speak never ends. Are we missing out on the possibility of growing or just enjoying the dogs by not having a test like say,,,, National Grand Master Pointing Retriever  What do you think?

I can attest to one 4x that is far from retired. Hopefully most of the others get hunted(what its all about) and arent just kennel queens.

There is nothing in the rules that keeps a dog from running in additional tests after their 4x. My daughter will probably run ridley next spring or fall. First 1.5X CPR?? and Ill run him from time to time because master tests are just too much fun. Just like hrc or akc, while there are no additional titles, the dogs can and should be run again.

This is a concern for those of us with a very young 4XGMPR. It seems really weird to have your dog basically retired from APLA at 3 years old. I know that they are not ruled out of running tests but it would be nice to get some sort of ribbon when it's over. I have made some friends in the short time that I have been involved with the APLA and I am still planning on going to the Michigan test whenever I can to volunteer so that I can hang out with them. Unfortunately, for a one dog owner, it is tough not to run a dog.

One problem for the APLA may be that APLA tests are longer than the tests of other organizations due to the addition of the upland test. There are getting to be enough young 4X in the Great Lakes area that we would have to add a third flight and the test would take two days if they all ran. One solution to this problem would be to add judges so that different teams of judges could judge seperate facets of each test. If upland and the retriever series could run at the same time, the time to complete a flight would be shortened considerably. Then it might be practical to go back to the old GMPR title or create a new GMPRCH title (to replace the 4X title) as the top title and lift the number of ribbons allowed like the other organizations do. HRC recognizes 500 point dogs and such. That would be a good solution for the APLA as well. Then those that want to keep running their dog after getting a GMPR title could do so with a goal in mind.

I don't think that we are a large enough organization to support a national title yet. I think that the solution above is better. We would have to work hard on solving master level judge shortage before it could be implemented though. I know that will be tough. There are a lot of people, myself included, that do not yet have the dog handling competency to feel comfortable judging the performance of others. I hope to get a little experience handling at Williamston, MI this coming weekend if Kenai gets to run as a test dog. That should provide some real entertainment for the crowd watching a newbie handler like me handling a 4X GMPR with only one possible training session on the day before.

Redlabel. Thanks for starting this thread. This stuff has been on my mind for a while now.

I have thought for years that the APLA should help with/sponsor some CPR-only tests in parts of the country that aren't close to our current venues-we really need to do something to attract new members and help out people who are wanting to get started. My idea was to have a two day event-seminar the first day, so people can ask training questions and find out what the test is about, and a CPR test the second day. Having 4XGMPR dogs run to showcase what a finished dog is all about would be excellent-give the new folks some inspiration. It would be an exhibition, so no need for Master judges. STK has a thread about a test on the west coast for people out that way-maybe that would be a place to start....

Great thread.  I am sure a zillion good thoughts will come out of this thread and I will be anxious to read them.  If you do not own a 4xGMPR, but are working towards that goal then there are definitely two sides of the coin.  As a dog owner working towards that goal I don't want to see the old (relative term here) 4x GMPR's running and increasing the number of dogs already running (which is growing each test and is a great thing).  However, when the lucky day comes and I do own a 4xGMPR, just as the point of the thread is, now what?

I don't know the size the organization must become first, but I think a one time a year National event is a fantastic idea, where only 4xGMPR's are allowed to compete, and name a Grand Champion (1st through 3rd) for that particular year, etc.

I decided to throw the idea on the table last night (and thanks Red Label for starting a new thread just for this topic) to see how many in the club think similarly that 4x is great but once that's achieved, where do we go from there.  Looks like quite a few of us have been having the same thoughts for a while!   Being relatively new to the test game I didn't even know until I joined an HRC club this year that there were options within that group to continue on and set new goals once you achieved the HRCH title.   Recognizing the HRC 500 and 1000 point dogs gives the owner and dog a venue to set goals and to keep going if they choose and thought, why not something similar in the APLA?    I know I'm not ready to quit and will have a CPR dog to run next year but why mothball Ted if I don't have to?    Not only is there the desire to keep competing, but wouldn't it also help showcase dogs for our Hall of Fame division?     I'm willing to help wherever I can to continue the thought process and keep this moving foward to make it a reality.   Just another one of the ways we can promote the APLA and keep members active.    Look forward to seeing everyone's input.

I like the idea of a National event one time a year. But instead of allowing only 4x's in it, I would rather have it be a certian # of MPR passes each year allows you in. I wouldnt take anything away from the 4x's. The first event I would allow all 4x's in and every dog that ran 4 or 5 passing MPR runs in that year, and then for the years to follow only allow dogs that pass a certain amount of MPR passes. Make the 4xGMPR the max title that a dog can attain, but if any dog before or after that point can run 4 or 5 mpr passes in a year will qualify for the national event. And instead of making a new title for the winner. I would award the winner of each national event an automatic entry into the Hall of Fame. I dont know much about these events but, something like this just sounds good.

These are good threads and good ideas. This is about the third thread (at least) of this kind I have remembered seeing over time but it is good to bring it up, talk about it and share ideas. I have had some conversations and tried to work through the logistics of some previous suggestions. It is funny that as soon as this comes up again - everything goes to a competition.

As Ed mentioned, we have no rule that says you cant keep running your dog after 4X. There is just no additional title. Frankly, if you pay $150 to run I think we can afford to give you a ribbon.

I have mentioned this before but personally, I was never a fan of the "4X" title. People outside our little PL world don't understand what it means. I would rather have seen, say 2 passes for a MPR, 4 or 6 more for a GMPR with the past dogs grandfathered, OR as Brad suggested a "GMPRCH" instead. [IMO] Moot point, as we have the 4X and I am not a fan of changing titles every few years, that does more harm than good to the organization as it is inconsistent.

I do like the points thing though. Originally the 4X was developed to showcase dogs and keep participation levels up. If we have a few dogs continue to run it would be an interesting thing to consider awarding points. We had (I think) our first two year old 4X this year and he is now relegated to setup or test dog when I judge.

We would need to be careful that the standards remained in place and the test was not influenced by a few dogs at a test that had 12 APLA master passes/MH/HRCH... setting test standard.

Posted By ASTOVER on 13 Sep 2011 08:56 AM
Great thread.  I am sure a zillion good thoughts will come out of this thread and I will be anxious to read them.  If you do not own a 4xGMPR, but are working towards that goal then there are definitely two sides of the coin.  As a dog owner working towards that goal I don't want to see the old (relative term here) 4x GMPR's running and increasing the number of dogs already running (which is growing each test and is a great thing).  However, when the lucky day comes and I do own a 4xGMPR, just as the point of the thread is, now what?

I don't know the size the organization must become first, but I think a one time a year National event is a fantastic idea, where only 4xGMPR's are allowed to compete, and name a Grand Champion (1st through 3rd) for that particular year, etc.

Even if it could attract interest, I'm not a fan of a competition.  We are a hunt test organization, not a field trial organization.  I have been to field trials and the camaraderie is much lower than our APLA tests.  We genuinely root for each others dogs rather than hope that they mess up.  If it did come down to a national type event, I would rather it be a difficult hunt test like HRC's Grand or AKC's (MNRC)  Master National.  If you want to compete, there are field trials for retrieving and BDC and other special (Showdown at Crosswind....still smiling) events for pointing.  I may soon move my dog to more competitive venues but would rather see the APLA keep up the team spirit.

Another problem with national events is: when do you hold them?.  I decided not to run my dog in the Master National because it would cut out the best part of my duck hunting season.  National tests almost have to run in October because there are still dogs trying to qualify in September.  Though I'd love to go, hunting is more important to me than testing.

Bruce
I would agree with the standards NOT being set by dogs with a dozen master level passes in numerous venues.
If that were to happen then we run the risk of becoming a trial or competition based organization always chasing the "Top Dog". The fun leaves me in that type of competition. I enjoy cheering for others and their dogs that run at the same level as my dogs.

My idea of National wouldnt be a competition but rather a once a year test that is at the next level. What that is would be another complete can of worms. Who could run in it again another can of worms. The title could certainly have CH something in it what we call it isnt important yet. Points or number of passes to qualify Im sure could be ironed out. The 4 x Title is here and yes it would be harmful to change its name just as changing the master level standard would be.

I do understand that it can be expensive to keep a dog trained and compete in tests at the master level each year. What isnt expensive though. The question might be how many dogs are there that can and would compete at a level higher. If the standard isnt set high enough and left at the master level then why have it, just as well keep running master like Ed mentioned. Could do the same as HRC does 500 or 1000 club.

"Another problem with national events is: when do you hold them?.  I decided not to run my dog in the Master National because it would cut out the best part of my duck hunting season.  National tests almost have to run in October because there are still dogs trying to qualify in September.  Though I'd love to go, hunting is more important to me than testing."

Thats a good point. The time of year would be tough to work around. Not only that but location. That would end up being some serious traveling for a lot of people no matter where it was held.

Redlabel you and I are on the same wavelength.    It's not so much about competing one dog vs. another, it's more about goal setting and wanting to continue to participate (along with meeting all the great people and dogs) and do so without compromising the fun we have along the way.    That's why I think something similar to the HRC points system might be doable.   Doesn't compromise the 4x standard, gives an owner something to shoot for and some recognition when the next level is attained.    From a business standpoint, it's as important in my business for me to retain existing customers as it is to grow new ones.   I think the same applies here, the APLA would be giving it's members (customers) who don't want to "retire" a dog or don't have more then 1 to run a chance to stay active.     Just food for thought.   So what would we do next if we could agree on a system?    Have the Board discuss?

I'm pretty new to pointing labs, and since I live 12 hours drive from the nearest test venue have yet to even see a test. I feel a little funny weighing in, but I've been thinking a bit about a slightly different line of reasoning that seems like it might play into this...it's made me wonder what people want for the future of labs that point. 

The APLA home page flashes "IDENTIFY...CERTIFY...PROMOTE".  Tests are a good way to identify and certify, but as I've been training my pup and trying to learn all I can I've been thinking about the overall promotion and the future of labs that point.  What about promoting?  In my case, I'm a hunter who has always had labs, and one of them happened to point--I thought it was cool so I got one bred for that.  However, I had a very hard time committing to a pointing lab because there are so many unknowns (that's a fact for most people) and so few places to get cold, hard facts to dispel myths...I didn't really have the opportunity to have any myths busted for me and I'm still trying to figure out whats real and what's myth.  Apart from one internet evangelist who has been very encouraging and helpful I don't know anyone who hunts with pointing labs, let alone hunts nothing but wild grouse, and he doesn't live anywhere close to me--so my little "experiment" keeps me up some nights, it's kind of like being on a desert island sometimes.  Frankly, I'm ready to pull my weight but a little promotion in my neck of the woods would go a long way to populating my island.  I get that with a realtively small "rule change" it might open up possibilities without stretching limited resources, it's just frustrating watching it all from 1/3 of a continent away. 
It also strikes me that if one of the goals of the organization is to "promote" pointing labs, that rather than put precious resources towards providing more opportunities for dogs that already have top titles, that different priorities might dictate putting effort into broadening the reach of the organization and providing either opportunities in other areas that don't currently have access to the density of pointing labs that, say, the upper midwest does...

...OR into providing a DIFFERENT venue, be it competitive or standard-based, that might provide a different opportunity for people...for instance, as a bird hunter with a lab that often ranges either side of 100 yards, I'm surprised that the top level of  certification only requires an extremely short (10 seconds I think) point....it takes minutes, not seconds, to get to even a close point in the places I hunt, let alone 80 or 90 yards.   With more labs apparently running bigger and being encouraged to do so, hunting skittish wild birds, etc, why not provide a venue to identify  and promote dogs that have the traits to make them extra-capable in some of that type of real hunting situation?   The coverdog folks have a way to evaluate dogs specifically for the traits that allow them to be very successful hunting wild birds--and even though this competitive format isn't for everyone, people use this comparison format in their breeding programs and it produces fantastic dogs.  Why wouldn't PL's benefit from this type of format to identify the very best dogs?  Competitive or not, why WOULDN'T the PL world want a venue that truly challenged even the very best dogs with the very best training, to promote the very best of the breed?  There are enough versatile dogs out there that it seems cooperating with that crowd would lend cred and populace to any effort as well.

Now, I don't really know the world of dog testing and trialing, and I'm sure that shows in some of my impressions above--but I am truly curious to hear what some of you that have more experience and more insight think about it.

being 4X does not automatically retire a dog......

Beamer needs five more NAHRA passes to reach GMHRCH (1000 points). Granted when he gets there I will not be driving to every NAHRA test within 8 hours nomatter what family conflicts arise, I do plan to still run him some. That same could be true for the 4X'ers out there. if it is a ameture with only 1-2 dogs they could still run occasionally. maybe run one day and help/judge another. Granted there may be no more "official" titles to earn, having your dgo in front of people is a good thing for the promotion of the breed and the dog if that is what the owner desires.

A couple other ideas, one would be to maybe have a NSTRA type shoot to retrieve type event connected with apla events, maybe the friday before? would be a chance for the titled out dogs to show their stuff..... We had a "pointing lab upland shootout" a few years ago in Feb. It was not super well attended, but it was a chance to get together in the non typical season..... will work out a couple other ideas I have mulling around

sorry

yes I know Bruce is laughing at me

This is a good thread... I hear what you guys are saying, Very valid points... but I think next step is more a competition...

Here is my idea... Upland/Retriever trial.
One hour braces in the upland field - could be ran on grouse cover course or on quail plantation... besides being steady to wing and shot, the dogs must be able to back another point and remain steady until other dog makes the retrieve and then is released...

All the dogs get scored and ranked (keep confidential between the judge) and then move to the retriever portion. Then set 5-6 retriever series and start dropping dogs after the second series. (first series is a double with a diversion bird, second series throw a triple with a combination of land and water. Then a land blind followed by a water blind. then set up a Master/QAA marks to trim the field down from there...)

Have three people judging, pointing dog, a AKC retriever and of course an APLA judge. It is time start raising the bar, the Pointing Dog Challenge (and Yes, Brad, I'm still smiling also) was good start. But do something to make the NAVHDA people stand up and take noticed. Heck let invite them to come play with us... instead of waiting to be invited to play, let create a game that they would want to play with us.

You could strip this down, and use the basic idea and turn it into test, like NAVHDA Invational... if you want to...

Lets do this in the south in January, that why its after hunting season here in MI and we can get out of the snow and cold... ;0) But we could do it in October here in MI... I am a couple of years away to have a dog in the game, so I would be willing to help out any way to get something going. We could also rotate it around the country every four years...

You guys are right we need to some way to keep the membership active and invested in the APLA.
Just my two cents...

Hmm...Texas in January. Sounds like a great way for a couple great group duck hunts.

Great thoughts and discussion. Didn't think we'd generate this much commentary ! Just wanted to clarify the thought process behind continuing on past the 4x GMPR was to encourage continued participation in APLA events (beyond the occasional person who will cough up the big bucks to run for fun) and have a formal process (like NAHRA or HRC) to keep people training, running and interested in sticking with the APLA. The problem I see with a single event (similar to NSTRA or one National competition) is getting people to attend. With all we're (personally) involved in now and looking at running the Master National next year, while a winter trip to Texas would be fun, financially and logistically it probably wouldn't work for us or many of us. Going to the "next level" which could be achieved through continued participation in hunt tests makes it easier for the majority to be involved and especially in the mid section of the country where there are more tests, not as financially or logistically challenging.

I'll be gone on biz the rest of the week but hope you all keep this string going and keep bringing ideas to the table. Again, if we were to agree on a format, what would the next step be to make it a reality? I'm not up on the formal workings of the APLA or how to really make something happen.

DLloyd
Sounds like the PDC bit you pretty good. Nothing wrong with what was done there thats for sure, It was a great thing. I was ecstatic when I heard about it. However I  think it needs to stay a fun thing done separate from the APLA. It wouldnt hurt if APLA members set up a competition to invite others to attend but I wouldnt be in favor of doing something like what they did in anything less than the "TEAM" setting the way the MI guys did. I dont think I would be interested in a trial of any sort IMHO.
There is a big difference in an organization who's members compete with and in most cases against each other vs one that sets a standard and its members encourage each other to attain the standard. Quite frankly I look at everyone in the APLA as being on the same team. Thats why I wouldnt want to chase the "Top Dog". (no pun intended LeRoy)

STK.  I assume you would want to talk to board members and or the Pres and ask to have them put it on the agenda. This would be a big undertaking to do right. It would take some time for Board members to work it out.