Yeah I heard of something like this, and know Sarah from HRC. Think a friend may see this and shine a little light on it for us.
May not be the same study now that I think back. As one kennel I know here-abouts was contacted and I was too indirectly. But that was about genetic research having to do with the point in PLs. Could be wrong. Still waiting on the kits, been awhile now.

Would really like more info. Thanks for posting Doc !

Paco

This is a totally different study than the "Pointing Gene" one.
This is brand new stuff.



.

I sent samples for both dogs early in July.

My understanding is the PL connection is a continuation of the earlier call for samples for Dr. Mark Neff's UCD study of the genetics of pointing. He is now associated with the VARI, apparently having moved from UCDavis.

You can clarify any questions by calling the VARI:
Dr. Roe Froman, DVM
Roe.Froman@vai.org
616.234.5569

I had better response on the 'phone when I had a question about alternative sampling methods.

The cancer study extends to all breeds and tumor samples might be especially helpful ( as opposed to saliva, bucal swabs, blood). The cancers being studied afflict humans also and are especially untreatable. Some are quite rare in humans - so difficult to study - but more common in dogs.

The technology for studying DNA has advanced by leaps and bounds in recent years. The Human Genome Project (project to determine the sequence of genetic code elements in human DNA) cost billions of dollars and took at least a decade, staring in 1991? to produce an approximation (a good one though). Now, a complete element by element sequencing of an entire genome can be done (Almost instantly - I'm sure I exagerate, but it is quickly) for something like $1000 and the price will fall from there.

I would strongly encourage anyone with a Lab. that truly points and/or is sick with one of the cancers mentioned in Doc's post, get a sample kit sent and return the samples. It's easy, quick and free. If your dog has cancer, I'd call Dr Froman and see what the best sample form would be for your specific case.

Jere

Posted By Doc_E on 01 Aug 2010 06:08 AM

Yesterday, I received this PM from Dr. Sarah Shull. She has asked me to pass this information along.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Hi Dr. Erickson,
I am helping out the Van Andel Institute in Grand Rapids, Michigan in sample collection.  They are looking specifically for blood or cheek swabs from pointing labs, and would really like a few with hip dysplasia if possible.  It is confidential and free of charge.  I can send out cheek swabs kits anywhere across the US or Canada.  
They also have five target cancers melanomas, osteosarcomas, hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, and histiocytic sarcoma they are looking for samples of.
Any possibilities?
Thanks,
Sarah Shull, DVM  
Here is their website.
http://www.vai.org/Research/Labs/CancerAndDevelopmentalCellBiology/chcc.aspx



.

Call me dense, I went to the web site and all it seems it talk about is cancer research. Am I missing something as I did not see anything mentioned out the PL testing? Max doesn't have cancer but does point and would not mind sending in a swab to help out. Do I just e-mail or call them and have a swab kit sent?

Max

I'd just email them.
Or, Dr. Shull's email is :  amshull@iserv.net


.

Thank You Doc,

Quite some time ago I received a call asking for cheek swabs ect but never received the packet or the info from the test as promised. Does anyone know if the research is or will be done. I assume it was the U Cal test.

Scott,
They are testing to see if there may be a pointing gene, as I understand it, and want healthy PLs too.

Re- read Jeres post, and go to the refuge gun dog forum .

Requested two swab kits today. I went directly thru Sarah, whom I know from HRC.
Another kennel had ordered a couple to be used on at least two of my dogs, but we have been waiting a long time.
Will see this time around.

Hello! Thank you for all of the submissions and interest so far. All of our kits should be received within 7-10 days of request at a maximum. I am sorry if you have requested in the past and not received them, the processes are much more streamlined now, there is a lot more dedicated staff on this project. This project is run by Dr. Mark Neff, and Dr. Roe Froman is the senior vet on the project. The project involves many different aspects in one lab, one section is looking at natural tendencies of working dogs(i.e. pointing) whereas another division is focusing on canine cancer. The neat thing of DNA technology is that purebred dogs offer such a unique population. One cheek swab from a lab can be used for natural tendency investigation but also be used as a control for comparison for a lab with a known cancer, so all of the labs work under one heading and the DNA can be banked for future use(a little bit of saliva goes a long way....).
We are also looking for samples of dogs genetically that seem like that should point, but never developed a strong tendency, it doesn't just have to be from strong pointing individuals.
I hope to make it to the Sept. event in MI, so hopefully I can answer more questions then and could take samples if people are interested.
Feel free to email me with any questions at amshull@iserv.net or Dr. Froman at Roe.Froman@vai.org
616.234.5569
Spread the word!
Thanks!!!
Sarah Shull, DVM

Thanks Sarah !

I put in a request for A few cheek swab kits as well. I wondered if they came with any type of information questionaire for each dog?? I guess what I am asking for is if it is looking for pre testing information ie: does the dog point or is it tested healthy or tested positive for some type of cancer etc.

The Pointing Gene? Should be sitting there right close to the Retrieving Gene I would imagine.

I must have gone to a different kind of school than other folks. Sheesh.

Posted By Julie on 09 Sep 2010 06:14 PM
The Pointing Gene? Should be sitting there right close to the Retrieving Gene I would imagine.

I must have gone to a different kind of school than other folks. Sheesh.

I know Julie Mark Neff said they would know in a couple of months, and that was in January now he wont even return a e-mail.......... hmmmm

Maybe he is upset when i sent him a e-mail about EBC-46 it is curing cancer in dogs it is in its prelim stages in i believe austrailia but  is getting great results!!

You "Science Skeptics" would crack me up but for the fact this is the twenty first century and we are in the United States of America. Once it was one of leaders (if not THE leader) in science and technology in the world; but now, as a direct result of a dismal education system (and a couple or more other factors I won't discuss in public) it is way down in the pack. Before long the best Americans will be able to aspire to will be to wipe the floors of the folks who really educate their young people! We are losing ground at lightspeed!

Jere

"Science Skeptic". That's a good one. First time I've had that term used Jere. I cannot tell exactly the point you are making, but along the lines of being uninformed, I would place the location of genes for behavior right up front. You don't see the pointing breed experts engaged in that 'hunt', nor do you see the retrieving experts even noticing. I think the research on cancer and other organic processes is of extreme importance. This other stuff is luring people and I'm sorry they've found the PL community to do it with. I almost never weigh in on political things here, but this one just gets me every time. As far as the educational system, I have two teenagers, and the lengths to which I have had to go just to get the basics down is unbelievable. I agree with the floor wiping statement.

Julie

Posted By Julie on 10 Sep 2010 07:10 AM
"Science Skeptic". That's a good one. First time I've had that term used Jere. I cannot tell exactly the point you are making, but along the lines of being uninformed, I would place the location of genes for behavior right up front. You don't see the pointing breed experts engaged in that 'hunt', nor do you see the retrieving experts even noticing. I think the research on cancer and other organic processes is of extreme importance. This other stuff is luring people and I'm sorry they've found the PL community to do it with. I almost never weigh in on political things here, but this one just gets me every time. As far as the educational system, I have two teenagers, and the lengths to which I have had to go just to get the basics down is unbelievable. I agree with the floor wiping statement.

Julie

There is so much rampart skepticism about science and matters scientific in the country today, I'm surprised you hadn't encountered the term.  Maybe that is exactly why you haven't encountered it though.  OTOH maybe I just invented it.

Maybe if we "talk" enough we'll each understand one another, Julie.

Actually, my understanding is that Mark Neff is a pointing breed type and the quest for understanding this behavior, which obviously has an inherited component, started with gathering samples of dna from pointing breed dogs.  Several "pointing breed experts" I've encountered on the internet (might 'pointing breed expert on the internet' be an oxymoron?  ) have expressed considerable interest and apparent participation in the endeavor.  As a generalization, and I understand the weakness of attempting same, I would say my observations would suggest "pointing breed experts" are more interested in natural behaviors than are "retriever experts" which could explain the latter's lack of notice. (I suppose that could raise some hackles!)

As for the "location of the genes for behavior" - now you may have expanded the verbiage somewhat from the implication of your first post where you shot at Doc E with "The Pointing Gene? Should be sitting there right close to the Retrieving Gene I would imagine."  Depends on the details of what "genes for behavior" actually means.  Does it still imply single gene associated with single behavior action pattern or does it imply multiple genes associated with a single action pattern? Or?

My point here is this (to cut short what is gonna be too verbous anyway): there is a distinct difference between searching for a (single) gene which determines some aspect of behavior such as "point" (probably not gonna turn out to be that way!) and looking in the dna for a source of clearly inherited aspects of behavior (such as the 'pause before pounce' of most predators which has been exagerated by selective breeding into what we call 'point' in dogs, the pounce itself, pick-up, carry and the tendency to watch flying objects in retrievers, the several distinct behavior patterns of herding dogs, and on and on).

I don't agree in the slightest this is a political thing.  It is serious scientific quest to understand the chemical basis for the inherited aspects of behavior. There is clearly an inherited basis for some behavior patterns (e.g. All dog breeds would all behave identically if this were not true.  We wouldn't have dogs that point and dogs that do not, for instance.).  If it isn't coded in dna it HAS to be coded somewhere!  If it isn't found in the dna coded genes they will have to look elsewhere (Please note an astonishing fraction of the dna molecule - the so-called 'junk' dna apparently does not comprise genes coding for proteins.)  Note: even though skilled practitioners, such as yourself, may be able to train (ie modify the behavior of) a critter to resemble another critter (e.g. train a Labrador to stop and stand ("whoa") when it detects the scent from a bird to simulate the natural point of an English pointer) the result of such training will never meet or exceed the performance of the dog bred to perform the trained behavior.

I have not talked with Mark Neff specifically about this issue (single gene - behavior correspondence), but I have read several pieces he or he and collegues have written on the subject and I do not remember a quest for a single gene for "point" or any other behavior pattern being mentioned. I suspect I can supply references should anyone care. Perhaps I missed something.

Kevin, Mark is and has been the director of the labs he's been at for as long as I've been aware of these studies and, as such, he has to be a very busy fellow.  If I were in his place, I'm sorry to say, I doubt I'd be able to find enough time in the day to answer every email from the bush.  If I were not "retired" and frustrated on several fronts, you wouldn't be seeing anywhere near as much here from me as you do! I am sure you  have been the victim of necessary "triage."

Jere