This is a novice question.

Participated in an AKC SR Hunt test today.  Luck of the draw put me second to last.

When my dog ran the water, it was the third use of all birds in the water series.  Blind was a floating bird up against some rushes, and it was planted prior to the double being commenced.  All birds were waterlogged/saturated.  I couldn't even see the blind by the time we got to it...mostly sunk.  Had exposed intestine on the rump when returned.

Is this standard or normal???

Thanks in advance.

   

Most test organizations have standards to attempt to keep the birds "afloat" on water but in reality you will see some of this from time to time.

It has been my experience that once judges see a "sinker" they pull it if possible or use it for the blind if it is planted in grass.. Any bird with exposed meat or guts should be pulled from the test in any organization, but again, in the real world some times things are missed. I would definitly (respectfully) point those items out to the judges as an FYI.

How did the day turn out for you?

Max and I just finished up Senior on the 22nd of May with our title, and the sinkers, I never saw anyone pull a duck. for exposed guts and other torn areas, yes.

I will ask also, how did your day turn out?

Boeinguy,

I've seen bird quality issues at quite a few tests - I it's a huge issue.  Not much you can do about it during a test, but be sure to talk make a phone call or send an e-mail to the HT Chair after the test.  Tell them that you were disappointed in the quality of their birds, but be sure to do it in a polite and positive manner.  Hopefully they'll address the situation for their next test.

Bird quality issues are usually due to:

Not buying enough birds - our club's rule of thumb is 2.2 ducks per entry, rounded up to the nearest 5.

Immature birds - age of birds should be part of the discussion with bird suppliers.  If younger birds are the only option, then the club should buy more birds.  Immature birds are usually less expensive, so the cost is a wash.

Taking care of the birds - Don't stack crates on top of each other.  Keep a reasonable number of birds per crate.  Ducks should be washed off prior to the test: by putting the crates in shallow, clean water or spraying them gently with a hose.  Ducks should be hung on a dryer immediately after being retrieved - even better if they can be wiped down with a chamois or paper towel first.  Also keep the live birds in a cool, shaded area, and when a particular bird deteriorates, it should be removed from the rotation.

It's too bad that many clubs short change their bird budget.  Poor birds limit the judges' options and lead to poor dog work, including mouth issues.  I avoid running in a club's tests if they have a history of using sub-standard birds.

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.  Birds are and have been an issue with our club.  It's always been done on the cheap, and you get what you pay for.  I liken it to playing a baseball with cheap, unbalanced balls.  Birds are the object of the game...they're the last thing we should cheap out on.

As to how we did?  Well, that's a whole nother story.  I thought we passed...she pinned all marks and did well on both blinds, but delivered the water birds poorly...just didn't want to hold them on return, but picked up and delivered on command.  Not an issue with the land series.  Was awarded the ribbon, hand shakes and congrats all around, lit the celebration cigar, and started to load up the truck.  Judge walks over and says there's been a mistake...she "spit" too many birds.  I replied they were "Shi#%y birds", they'd all been used in water 3 times.  She replies "That's part of a dog test". I reply "Only if you allow it to be".  Gave the ribbon back.  Scratched for the next day. 

After 2 days of contemplation...think I'll continue training for the dog's and hunting sake...not ribbons.

Seriously?!? They awarded the ribbon, then asked for it back?! Didn't the judges award the ribbons? I would say that there are more issues with that situation than nasty birds.

For what it is worth, we train with really nasty ducks. I get a couple fresh ones out of the freezer, and use them until they are ripe enough to offend people that are unlucky enough to pass downwind of my pickup in a parking lot. Then, if needed, I throw them in a bag with my BB bumpers to "marinate" and scent the ropes before throwing the ducks away. So, the dogs get use to them and you have to occasionally get back to fresh ones because they will want to mouth the good fluffy ones after that.

It is normal that most ducks are in pretty bad shape by the end of a water series. But again, that is a pretty strange situation that you describe.

That is a strange situation, I've never heard of somebody having to give back a ribbon   Sounds like the skunky ducks might be the least of the problems.

Bruce has a good point about training with NASTY ducks - it's something that I do also.  If you train in a group, you might even ask to run your dog last - after the ducks have been handled by lots of other dogs.

Using a duck three times in the water really isn't that unusual.  It depends on the quality of the duck going into the series, how long they sit in water, how the birds were cared for, etc.

Don't be discouraged by one bad experience - keep training (including the nastiest ducks you can find) and keep playing the game.  Someday you'll get a belly up drake on the money mark - you won't need to apologize, just call it karma.

All this discussion brings to mind that every solution brings up more problems.
I know a few folks that are hard core duck hunters. They don't play the games, and one of the reasons is what you have described. In a duck hunting situation, you want the bird just knocked down retrieved, not any old cold bird.
Training for everything you think you will run into at a test is often counter to what you need for hunting. I'll stick with what I ask for in the hunting I do.
Likely miss a few ribbons for doing that, but hunting is my bottom line, tests are something fun in the other season.

every solution brings up more problems.

That happens regardless of what you are training for - hunting or test stuff.  Now, Frank, I have seen that Gator dog do retriever work that was well beyond "hunting" training .

Thanks Bruce, I was thinking more of "Scoop up the weak and wounded, and especially the bloody ones",,,,,as a good gundog should IMO, You know the nickname Dale and I use for that knucklehead. It's not rated for general audiences.

Just adding something to ponder, and maybe get a smile. Think I succeeded ?

Every solution brings up more problems, goes way beyond what we are talking here....LOL!

"Scoop up the weak and wounded, and especially the bloody ones",,,,,as a good gundog should

Yep, you know I paid my $125 membership dues to that club in IL this spring. Hoping its a one-time membership but I'm not counting on it.  Prey drive+speed+distance+crappy pen birds = livin' on the edge

boeingguy,

I can't help responding because there are too many issues going on here. Your experience really sucks. I know more about your hunt test and it's judges in spite not being there.

AKC requires 2 ducks per entry. Mostly, that many ducks don't get to the SH ht stake due clubs doing it cheaper.

Your name being called for a ribbon when you didn't pass sucks, but I would assume it was an honest mistake. Now, how is was handled on personal basis is a whole 'nother discussion isssue.

Now to the sinking ducks. Many ht/judge/bird management issues here, which fall under the judge's management and direction. I judge AKC, HRC, and APLA extensively, the duck issue is one that must be managed for a successfull ht and for fairness to all dog/handlers.
*Most hunt test ducks won't do the third water float due to not being mature enough for full feather growth and it's natural waterproofing not being fully established.
*Again, the blind ducks must be specifically selected for the best "floatability".
*For fairness to this potentially sinking bird blind should have judged to the "point of unfairness", or to the blind and not when the sunk bird is located and picked up.
*Only the best ducks that haven't been in the water previously should be selected.
*I am assuming from what you described that wet bird dropping happened on ALL the water marks and the blind. This is a trainability scoring issue with judges each possessing their own "acceptable standard". Thus, how many times were ducks dropped makes up whether this issue reached a minor mark down, or all the way to a failing issue by the judges.

Now, for the dog's bird dropping of wet old ducks is the duck/handler issue to work on. And one you need more work on with old freezer rerun ducks and are thawed out and refrozen many times. You treat this wet duck dropping issue like force fetch. Start force fetch over. At the end of it go to many wet stinking ducks on the ground. Repeat this until the issue is corrected.

I have had sinking ducks on marks a few times at tests, dropped because of how the dog did on the series, once on that duck, once after a extended handle in the AOF to bump into it, and it shot the memory of the other two birds, once I got a rerun and broke the second time having a flyer in his face. Bad breaks yes, mad yes, remember who the judges were and which club it was yes....

I have also been dropped for being mouthy on a bird that was not in great shape, the next week we trained with rotten birds and used force on the return so that he started hustling his but back and didn't have time to be mouthy, it worked cause last weekend the duck evidently came a part in the winger cause the guts were hanging out of it, and he hustled his butt back with a mouthfull of guts in his mouth.....

I have also had times when I get a beach ball floating on the tough mark, a bird boy leaves a white belly up that can't be seen from the line (to be corrected) but the dog sees it half way to the blind making it look like he resisted factors like crazy, and have had an occasional shark fin on the water.... Run enough and they will all even out

Bad birds are part of the game from time to time, unfortunatly you just have to be prepared for it....

It happens....
Jake at a MPR test last fall smoked the land series, smoked the double in the water,Then came the water blind...... 4 casts to 4 feet to the blind back right..... Jake steps on the blind......and stuck it under water in the mud, 6 times i put him back there, stepped on it again rasing it enough to get a scent, but 2 many cast refusals and talking to the dog.. thank you for your donation 140 bucks.... It Happens......

Thanks for the responses guys.  Learned my lesson, "Rookie Error".  I've alsays used pretty good birds...will train with "Waterlogged Roadkill" prior to my next test. 

Now, I just have to keep them hidden from the "Healthcare Manager" wife of mine!  (Triple bag and hide behind the duck sausage.)