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 Wednesday, February 08, 2012
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Pointing Lab Forums
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CPR, APR, MPR Hunt Tests
Last Post 08 Jun 2010 03:33 PM by Trout Bum. 60 Replies. |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 31 May 2010 05:44 PM |
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I will eventually get my 28mth Y/M QAA, MH tested in the APLA and may not agree with all rules / regs but will play by what is applicable at the time. Congrads on the titles! I am on the east coast to, and know what you are up against. You may have 3 to 4 weekends of travel to get him to the 4x level. Doing away with the CPR requirement would save about a $1000 in travel I figure. Getting a test closer(NC) helps alot, just as long as their are plenty of dogs. I would hate to get started, and then have a test cancelled, forcing travel. I hope you board member are reading this. There are many dogs of this caliber on the east coast that point naturally, with NO training! |
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LarryAdmin
New Member
Posts:27
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| 31 May 2010 08:10 PM |
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Well, FJR, I can answer the CPR question as "this is our rule". It is kinda like the AKC rules in that they make their rules and "those are the rules you run under". Rules like to get a MH title you must get 5 MH passes plus a SH title, or 6 MH passes outright. Whoops, Good point here in that you can run at MH and not do the lower stake. I guess we could entertain doing that. OK, all bs aside. I bet you didn't go to AKC over that 6th pass. So, why does one little CPR pass for an obviously very talented MH and QAA dog that already points an issue. You have an awesome dog. Come to our hunt test in lower NY state in September. I look forward to meeting you there and watching your dog work.
a board member |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 01 Jun 2010 04:40 AM |
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So, why does one little CPR pass for an obviously very talented MH and QAA dog that already points an issue. The issue is, the test is 500 miles away and more importanly, It takes up a day! No other test can be run that day. If the required cpr was eliminated or we had a test closer, problem solved. |
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1544
Pierce, Colorado
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| 01 Jun 2010 05:16 AM |
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Lets see 6 Master passes 420, they average 2 days per test at least here they dont finish in a day, thats 6 weekends!
Run CPR on Saturday, run MPR on sunday, 0ne weekend, 240- bucks a Master Pointing retriever all in one weekend. now thats a deal!! |
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
HRCH Rocky Mountain Rosco SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
HRCH Satin's Jumpin Jedi SH
HR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
MPR HRCH KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
HR KB's Loaded To Go Allie JH
CP HR KB's Blazin' White Thunder (Blaze) JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty JH
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scott olson
Basic Member
Posts:156
Corsica SD
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| 01 Jun 2010 08:11 AM |
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FJR
I have to say everyone here is quite cordial in their response to your "questions". I understand your frustration having to start at an entry level with a QAA dog, but Kevin is right on with his accounting. I dont know of a dignified title that takes less TEST time and money. Not to mention there have been dogs that didnt pass the CP test that held AKC and or UKC recognized titles.There have also been Akc and Hrc titled dogs that passed the cp but not Mpr. If you were allowed to go to the Mpr without a Cp title would you go back to the CP test if you failed a MPR test?
As for your comment about not offending anyone, your comment, well she's got her CP lets breed her could be a little out of line. Especially to those who traveled to the SD test donated two to four days and watched a CP x CP dog attain his 4x GMPR without a flaw. Good dogs can come from dogs without top titles.
If you look back in some of the APLA titled top producing dogs pedigrees you can see there are plenty of dogs out of lesser titled dogs that are great dogs. |
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| Be all you can be. |
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TC
Basic Member
Posts:172
Apple Valley, Minnesota
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| 01 Jun 2010 09:32 AM |
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FJR,
So are you suggesting that the APLA change to be more like AKC? We could say that the MPR title = 2 Master passes or 1 Master pass in addition to a CPR or APR title? I'd be in favor of that, but I'm not sure that anyone would go that route. Try to name another Hunt Test organization where you can get a Master title in a single weekend...
From CPR title to the breeding shed? Yes, we see a lot of that, and in my opinion, some of those dogs are worthy of breeding and some are not. A title at any level in any venue gives you some information about the dog - nothing more, nothing less. It's still the buyer's responsibility to do their own homework.
As to video needed to verify anything? That's an insult and a direct shot at this organization and its judges and volunteers. Are you somehow insinuating that people are bribing judges? Give me a break. There are 2 judges for every dog, and the test is run in full view of the gallery. While we may not all agree with every judge in every circumstance, those are pretty strong accusations from somebody with zero credibility who has yet to see an APLA test or run a dog in this organization.
Doc, you don't really want to bring up the WA test again, do you? Especially in this context?
Are the board members watching this thread? Yes, I'm one of 3 board members who have responded to this rediculous thread.
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3.5XGMPR GMHR Tub's Diamond in the Ruff "Coal"
CPR WR Points South Red Rock Rookie "Rookie" |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 01 Jun 2010 10:30 AM |
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As to video needed to verify anything That was for the future, when you have judges in several states, it was not directed to anyone...Some of you sure are fast to make a mountain of DRAMA out of a mole hill. rediculous thread It IS GETTING REDICULOUS NOW |
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TC
Basic Member
Posts:172
Apple Valley, Minnesota
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| 01 Jun 2010 10:59 AM |
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Posted By FJR on 31 May 2010 03:18 PM
I do, you never know what a person/breeder might do to get a judge to let some things slide. Every thing in this country boils down to politics sooner or later. IMO
This statement is a direct attack on the integrity of the APLA: members, handlers, breeders, and judges. Refuting it is NOT making a mountain out of a molehill  |
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3.5XGMPR GMHR Tub's Diamond in the Ruff "Coal"
CPR WR Points South Red Rock Rookie "Rookie" |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 01 Jun 2010 12:26 PM |
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When the APLA gets big enough to have judges in every state, sooner or later you MAY have a dog that doesn't pass, and the owner disputes the judgement. Also you MAY have favoritism. I am talking about the future here ! ! Wouldn't a video take care of that? How is this an attack?
I do, you never know what a person/breeder might do to get a judge to let some things slide. Every thing in this country boils down to politics sooner or later. IMO
Do you see the word, MIGHT? |
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1544
Pierce, Colorado
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| 01 Jun 2010 01:59 PM |
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Posted By FJR on 01 Jun 2010 12:26 PM
When the APLA gets big enough to have judges in every state, sooner or later you MAY have a dog that doesn't pass, and the owner disputes the judgement. Also you MAY have favoritism. I am talking about the future here ! !
Wouldn't a video take care of that?
How is this an attack?
I do, you never know what a person/breeder might do to get a judge to let some things slide. Every thing in this country boils down to politics sooner or later. IMO
Do you see the word, MIGHT?
FJR, I am very competitive and had to change my thinking about these tests, Everybody thinks they have great dogs even me, I have failed and felt like i have passed went home called the pres of the APLA and complained, he showed me in the rules were my dog couldnt do what he did, and i still didnt believe him, so there is no favoritism, even the presidents dogs fail too, these judges are very good and 9 times out of 10 the dog fails himself anyways..
If you want to run and bring a video, bring it.
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
HRCH Rocky Mountain Rosco SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
HRCH Satin's Jumpin Jedi SH
HR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
MPR HRCH KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
HR KB's Loaded To Go Allie JH
CP HR KB's Blazin' White Thunder (Blaze) JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty JH
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 01 Jun 2010 02:00 PM |
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I guess we could entertain doing that. From Larry I'd be in favor of that TC Make it so the APLA makes the same money to skip the CPR test, ITS A WIN, WIN. There are two board members that have spoken. This realy would benifit both. |
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DocFritz
Advanced Member
Posts:615
SW Iowa
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| 01 Jun 2010 02:27 PM |
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Who in their right mind when given the choice of running two MPR tests, that cost say 30 bucks more then a CPR test, and have about twenty more things that can go wrong then a CPR test, would CHOOSE to run two MPR tests for the same title as a CPR then a MPR test?!?!?!?!?
If that is what you are suggesting, it would first, make more money for the organization, higher entry fees plus the MUCH lower pass rate in the MPR vs CPR stake. If you are saying that you would RATHER RUN TWO MPR tests for the SAME TITLE as a CPR and MPR passes, (actually less title you skipped CPR) you are loosing your argument with your own arguement. You say it is possibly for the APLA to make more money, but you offer an alternative that would in fact make the APLA more money.....
As for taping tests to prevent bribing judges?!?!?!? HUH?!!? does any other organization do that????? So what is to prevent the handler from bribing the "insatnat replay" person, the decision could be made behind a computer screen with out the gallery watching, for that matter, just bribe the secretary to add you name to the "test report" and save yourself the hassle of showing up and running altogether?????
As for thinking you might get "hosed" for lack of a better term, we have all been there, wither in this org or another when we caught a bad break, or didn't necessarily see it the same way the judges saw our run. It happens. You move on and train harder to make your own breaks, or so that you are good enough to over come a bad one. There is a quote on RTF that I like, something like "when you get a gift, smile thank the judges and walk away, when you get screwed thank the judges and walk away, you will get screwed more often then you get a gift"
Requiring the CPR does NOT promote CPR to the breeding shed, if people were or are only interested in the CPR title, how does not requiring it to move up prevent people from ONLY running it????? Again, in my mind a flawed rational in attempt to support an arguement when if you would just say, "why is it so" is a valid question. Basically I think that in your arguements, you have taken a valid question and made an irrational arguement therefore making your original question seem less valid....... |
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Fritz Baier D.C.
GMHR-II WR SR MPR APR CPR Baier's Mighty Waldimar
MHR WR HR SR CPR Baier's Lady Gabrielle
Baier's Lady Legacy of TruPoint |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 02 Jun 2010 10:25 PM |
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Doc Fried
Have you read anything I wrote....I don't think so...but if you have, you don't understand..
I am speaking for several guys here...
Our situation is..
1. WE are 500 miles from a test. If we travel every year to the said test, (500 miles away)and pass every test(if)(and (IF THE TEST IS NOT CANCELLED) we are looking at 4 years to get to 4xGM. Thats FOUR 4 YEARS. We would rather train at home four two year, and fail a master test out of the box, than we would travel 500 miles AND PASS a CPR test. For the love of god. you have one of the top trainers in the APLA who is questioning the CPR.
2. If a guy is willing to pay and has a dog he thinks is capable of passing the MPR, WHY not let him try, instead or requiring the CPR?
After all the BS from this thread, I doubt either of us would go to (ANOTHER TEST ) (YES WE HAVE SAW THE TEST) regardless. Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance. ... |
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Liv2Hnt
Basic Member
Posts:472
Overland Park, KS
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| 03 Jun 2010 06:06 AM |
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Who is one of the top trainers in this thread questioning the CPR?
I understand the frustration of being out of one of the core testing areas for the APLA, but you are asking to change the rules that have applied to a bunch of dogs for a handful of people. The board members on here who were willing to consider changing the CPR mentioned that you would have to pass the MPR test twice to get the MPR title instead of running the CPR and then MPR for the MPR title. This really wouldnt reduce any travel time for you.
I would also encourage you to listen to some of the thread posters concerning the test, particularly those that run their dogs or judge. Ive seen lots of highly titled dogs go down in flames in the MPR test on both the retrieving portion and especially the upland. It has a historically low pass rate for a reason. It is very difficult to do both retriever work and upland work in the same day, let alone over the course of a two day double master stake. The 4X doesnt happen very often and it certainly takes a big commitment in terms of time and willingness to travel to tests, especially for the amateur. But if that is your goal, youll have to look at what sacrifices you are willing to make. I personally traveled to MI last year to enter a double Master stake. Im not sure on the mileage from KS, but since Larry was driving I think we drove 500 miles just in the St. Louis area.
I think you would be better off running a dog that has never entered an APLA hunt test in CPR than running masters, regardless of their pedigree, training etc. The CPR test is the first of two passes required for an MPR title or any other title in the org. I'm not positive, but I believe the thought process at the time was to do it this way since they werent going to require mulitiple passes for the higher level titles due the the relative infrequency of the tests. If the board was going to drop the CPR rule, Im sure that they would make the requirement that you pass the masters twice for the MPR title because it takes two passes for the MPR title, the CPR and MPR.....or if the rule would change, it would then take two masters passes for the MPR.......really wouldnt help your quest to save time or money as the mpr test is more expensive, takes more time and has a lower pass rate.
In response to one of the other comments, I honestly dont believe that removing the CPR title from the MPR test will have any impact on the quality of dogs titled by the organization. While I agree that by the very nature of the use of the word "certified" the entry level title carries more weight than it should as opposed to started or something, titles only paint a small part of the total picture.
As for the videoing.....what is your thought process, to have a review board look at and over rule the judges on the ground(what if it happens in the first series?). I think you should have stuck with the heart of your thread as I am big proponent of discussions for improving the organization, instead of going this route, especially from someone admitting they havent run tests. If the handler is really honest with themselves, its generally obvious that the dog took themselves out. Ive been pencil whipped a few times too. Its a pass fail game, but with too judges, Ive never felt I was treated unfairly.
As the APLA expands, hopefully we will have more tests on the east coast and I encourage you to be a part of that. Reach out, ask the apla for other member data or breeders if they know of dogs sold to your area and help put together a test. I think there may be a test in NY in the fall or spring and now looks like NC is a possibility. |
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| Edward McNally
Amateur trainer/ owner/ rookie handler of:
4 X GMPR HRCH McNally's Right Stuff Ridley (5 MH Passes) |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1880
N.E. WA state
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| 03 Jun 2010 06:14 AM |
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Tradition and maintaining the status quo leads mankind into many pitfalls,
but justifies none. If a person or an organization isn't moving ahead, it's falling behind.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1880
N.E. WA state
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| 03 Jun 2010 06:32 AM |
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Posted By Liv2Hnt on 03 Jun 2010 06:06 AM
1. but you are asking to change the rules that have applied to a bunch of dogs for a handful of people.
2. Ive seen lots of highly titled dogs go down in flames in the MPR test on both the retrieving portion and especially the upland.
3. I'm not positive, but I believe the thought process at the time was to do it this way since they werent going to require mulitiple passes for the higher level titles due the the relative infrequency of the tests.
4. In response to one of the other comments, I honestly dont believe that removing the CPR title from the MPR test will have any impact on the quality of dogs titled by the organization.
1. A handful of people? I know way more than a handful of people who think the CPR before MPR requirement needs to be changed.
2. I've seen a lot of highly titled dogs go down in flames in the Master Level in all of the testing venues (AKC, NAHRA, HRC, BDC etc)
Therefore ? ? ?
3. Now that the APLA Tests are not infrequent, might it not be time to move on ?
4. Lots of people from other organizations think that "our" low number of passes needed for a title are pretty lame. Look how many passes are required for a Master Level Title in AKC, NAHRA, HRC etc.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Liv2Hnt
Basic Member
Posts:472
Overland Park, KS
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| 03 Jun 2010 06:58 AM |
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Doc, believe me, I agree wholeheartedly in most contexts.....the org has to continue to evolve, to attract new handlers, dogs etc and believe me, Im all for it. I had never even heard of the APLA a little over 5 years ago and I have a big passion for these dogs. My comment on changing the rule for a few, stands because youre asking to change a rule for a few who dont agree that has applied to a lot of titled dogs and while not really the status quo, is generally considered a positive thing for the organizaiton that the masters test has as its requirement a passing certified score. I think you also made my point, that removing the CPR as the first requirement for a master title reduces the number of passes for a Master pointing retriever title. If you are worried about the perception of other testing organizations, why would you want to support reducing the master title to one pass?
Its much harder to make changes when it comes to the titles the organization bestows because of the historical impact on past titled dogs, the impact on dogs that are currently in the testing process, etc. Think about how you would feel if Casey passed the CPR and MPR for his master title and then we change the rule that requires four master passes for the master pointer retriever title and you now just have a certified dog. Do you grandfather those dogs in? Do they have an asterics by their name that they were part of the old rules?
I know you had not run in the APLA for a long time because of this rule and finally did. Im glad, your obviously a big supporter and spend lots of time on here. I would support a rule change allowing a dog to go straight to masters, but requiring 2 passes, because you have to keep the passes equal. You can as a member send a rule change proposal to the rules committee. As a handler, why would you do that to yourself?
Believe me, as an amateur/rookie handler and trainer of my own dog, I understand the amount of time that it takes to get a dog to the top level of this or any other organization. It took Ridley two years to get his HRCH title despite going 4/5, because we just couldnt get to a test. Were just starting MH tests and looking at probably 2 years to find 8-10 weekends and assuming a very high pass rate (fingers crossed) I honestly feel for your distance from the core of our hunt test locations, but I dont believe what you are asking for is the answer.
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| Edward McNally
Amateur trainer/ owner/ rookie handler of:
4 X GMPR HRCH McNally's Right Stuff Ridley (5 MH Passes) |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1880
N.E. WA state
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| 03 Jun 2010 07:01 AM |
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Posted By redlabelgs on 01 Jun 2010 08:11 AM
I dont know of a dignified title that takes less TEST time and money.
I don't know of a "dignified" title that only takes one or two passes.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1880
N.E. WA state
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| 03 Jun 2010 07:06 AM |
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Posted By TC on 01 Jun 2010 09:32 AM
1. As to video needed to verify anything? That's an insult and a direct shot at this organization and its judges and volunteers.
2. Doc, you don't really want to bring up the WA test again, do you? Especially in this context?
1. Do you think that the "Instant Replays" in professional sports is an insult to the referees ?
2. Just sayin'
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Liv2Hnt
Basic Member
Posts:472
Overland Park, KS
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| 03 Jun 2010 08:58 AM |
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Doc, I think my point is that if you and some of the others in this string have admitted is that you havent run in or passed one or multiple dogs in APLA tests so can you honestly say you know what it takes to pass, especially at the master level or can make a comment on if the level of work after passing a certified and master test dignifies the title? In my opinion anyone looking from the outside in without experience is just a critic. Some from the outside may not feel the two passes it takes to get the master title (certified plus master pass) may not be a dignified title, but they also dont have one. I can tell you as an amateur trainer/handler, I was extremely proud of my first master title. Training a dog to the master level, balancing retriever and upland work on top of steady to wing and shot and the thin margins for error in a passing master title makes it very tough. Come out test your dogs, get some passes and then make your case that you didnt think the certified pass added anything to the organization or the testing. |
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| Edward McNally
Amateur trainer/ owner/ rookie handler of:
4 X GMPR HRCH McNally's Right Stuff Ridley (5 MH Passes) |
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