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 Tuesday, February 07, 2012
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Pointing Lab Forums
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CPR, APR, MPR Hunt Tests
Last Post 08 Jun 2010 03:33 PM by Trout Bum. 60 Replies. |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 27 May 2010 08:07 AM |
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Whats the reason behind having to take the tests in the order CPR, APR, MPR?
Seems to me, the trainers/owners could save time and money if the advanced dogs could test for the higher titles out of the gate? If a dog could pass the MPR the first time out, then the CPR, APR, is a given. Let the owner also pay the dues for the CPR,APR test. This would free up travel expense, reduce the # of tests at a event, APLA makes the same money?
As a guy that has never run in a event, it looks as though, the APLA is more interested in making money, than they are 4x Grandmasters. |
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DocFritz
Advanced Member
Posts:615
SW Iowa
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| 27 May 2010 11:53 AM |
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You don't have to run APR,
The other side of it is look at the money you would be saving if you go to a CPR, watch a Master and then decidee that it "looks" different then it "reads". It would be a TALL order to expect a dog to pass MPR without running a test before, could be done, but would be a tall order
Also IMO, like it not the organization does have to pay bills, but on the other hand the fact that you can get a pass and a title with just one pass saves you a lot of expense as well. SO look at from the standpoint you ONLY have to pass two tests, one is significantly cheaper to get that MPR, and it can be done on the same weekend. That is a lot cheaper then 4-5 weekends for a MH, the 2-3 weekends (two tests per weekend ) for an MHR, the seven or however many weekends for an HRCH..... Just saying if you show up and Pass, an APLA title is pretty inexpensive (minus all the training birds of course ;-), but you would do that just for fun anyway) If you don't pass because your dog breaks in the upland...... it adds up quickly!
I don't think it is a bad thing that dogs have to point in more then one test to get an advanced title by running the CPR.
Are you saying you would pay the mutltiple entries on one test? |
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Fritz Baier D.C.
GMHR-II WR SR MPR APR CPR Baier's Mighty Waldimar
MHR WR HR SR CPR Baier's Lady Gabrielle
Baier's Lady Legacy of TruPoint |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 27 May 2010 02:27 PM |
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Are you saying you would pay the mutltiple entries on one test? Yes, If a guy has a dog with MH, or HRCH title and has a staunch point, I think the time spent for the CPR is time wasted, unless thats the only goal. Thanks to clarify, I didn't realize you could skip the APR test. |
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DocFritz
Advanced Member
Posts:615
SW Iowa
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| 27 May 2010 05:32 PM |
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They used to let you run CPR early and the Master after you had passed CPR that day, but with larger entries that soesn't work any more....
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Fritz Baier D.C.
GMHR-II WR SR MPR APR CPR Baier's Mighty Waldimar
MHR WR HR SR CPR Baier's Lady Gabrielle
Baier's Lady Legacy of TruPoint |
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Paco
Advanced Member
Posts:839
On a trout stream in NW, MI.
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| 27 May 2010 06:08 PM |
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Posted By FJR on 27 May 2010 02:27 PM
Yes, If a guy has a dog with MH, or HRCH title and has a staunch point, I think the time spent for the CPR is time wasted, unless thats the only goal.
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Lots of big dogs have failed cpr. Just because a dog points, does not equate a hunter.Gotta find them first to point them. .
I did not like having to run CP a few seasons back, but sucked it up and did . Very glad I did too.
The upland field at APLA tests is the meat of the test, a whole lot can go wrong. It can confuse a seasoned wild bird hunting dog, and it can undue all the training you do to try and pass the tests. A pen raised chukar out for a stroll, or worse a phez, and all bets are off. ALSO A DOG DOING RETRIEVER WORK AND SWITCHING TO UPLAND WORK on the same day takes a seasoned dog most times. |
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________________________________________
Founding member- Michigan Mafia (aka MM ;)
4X GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "GATOR"
GMPR HRCH HRKs Liberators Outlaw "RONDO" SH
GMPR VeraGators Smokin' Diablo of G'Force "SMOKEY"
Trust your dogs - Let 'em Roll
www.gforceretrievers.com
Outlaw Upland~Waterfowl Labs
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 28 May 2010 04:24 AM |
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A pen raised chukar out for a stroll, or worse a phez, and all bets are off. They use to use quail for the CPR test, are you saying they now use chukar or phesants? Big differences. I have seen the rules change in alot of hunt test over the years, and not just the APLA. Seems the CPR test might be a bigger deal than I thought. The upland field at APLA tests is the meat of the test And it should be |
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bsmiley
Advanced Member
Posts:988
Fishers Indiana
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| 28 May 2010 05:09 AM |
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Lets put some perspective to this. First of all the APLA does not "make money". It is a non proffit that basically runs on a shoestring with no paid employees and some pretty minor expenses for outside services in IT and database administration to keep our records and web site valid. Last year we had a good year in terms of turnout and expense management for tests. As a result - test fees were lowered this year to memebers. In some past years, we have lost money overall on a season of tests. Any extra funds generated has been used to purchase equipment so we actually have good consistent tests.
After nearly two years on the board, I am a little sensitive to accusations that the APLA has some profit motive. If people took an interest to understand the fianancials of this organization it would be pretty clear how frankly comical that statement is. Especially comical is the thought of a "proffit motive" generated from one CP entry - we may or may not even clear expenses on the CP entries. They are the entry to this organization and show that a dog can hunt a field, point a bird, and do some level of water retrieving. Frank is right, the upland is always a wild card at any testing level.
Also for perspective, if you went strait to AKC Master, it would require 6 passes to title MH. If you went strait to Finished in HRC, it would require 7 passes for an HRCH. APLA is three passes to a GMPR - CP, MPR, GMPR - 3 passes.
How exactly does this translate the the APLA being "more interested in making money"?
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Cruz, 4XGMPR HRCH MH ("CAT 6")
Yeager, MPR HR (Master Pointing Lap Dog)
Cody, 2XGMPR, MH (BAMF,RIP, Friend)
Runnin',Gunnin' & Pickin' Up the Chickens!
www.browngundogs.com
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Paco
Advanced Member
Posts:839
On a trout stream in NW, MI.
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| 28 May 2010 07:32 AM |
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Posted By FJR on 28 May 2010 04:24 AM
A pen raised chukar out for a stroll, or worse a phez, and all bets are off.
They use to use quail for the CPR test, are you saying they now use chukar or phesants? Big differences.
Your choice on chukar or Phez.
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I have seen the rules change in alot of hunt test over the years, and not just the APLA. Seems the CPR test might be a bigger deal than I thought.
The upland field at APLA tests is the meat of the test
And it should be
Agreed,,,,but in the master I believe the retrieving work should be judged at/and up to a master/finished level, and it is. (IMO)
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________________________________________
Founding member- Michigan Mafia (aka MM ;)
4X GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "GATOR"
GMPR HRCH HRKs Liberators Outlaw "RONDO" SH
GMPR VeraGators Smokin' Diablo of G'Force "SMOKEY"
Trust your dogs - Let 'em Roll
www.gforceretrievers.com
Outlaw Upland~Waterfowl Labs
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 28 May 2010 07:36 AM |
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If people took an interest to understand the fianancials of this organization it would be pretty clear how frankly comical that statement is.
I am interested, thats why I asked the question, to start this thread. I am a guy on the outside looking inn. I use to be up on the test rules, but as you see, I have been out of the loop for awhile.
How exactly does this translate the the APLA being "more interested in making money"?
Maybe you didn't understand my original question. Say a guy has been around the APLA hunt test for many years and knows what it takes to pass a dog in the masters. He has a seasoned dog as Frank described with no APLA titles. According to APLA rules of old, he would have to pass CPR, APR to take the MPR test. This is what my post is based on. Now I have found out that you can atleast skip the APR test, and this seems fair in my mind. Now that you bring it up, I do see where around $8000 was grossed on the SD test, not counting membership dues. What is there, like a dozen test a year? I know birds are expensive along with everything else in this country. Is there a link to see the clubs financials, or do you have to be on the board? Thanks to you guys for educating me, I am not trying to flush any feathers here, just Point them, and ask questions. LOL
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bsmiley
Advanced Member
Posts:988
Fishers Indiana
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| 28 May 2010 11:11 AM |
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Maybe you didn't understand my original question. I understood your question. I think it was answered by other posts.
According to APLA rules of old, he would have to pass CPR, APR to take the MPR test. I am not aware that the mid-level (IPR/APR) was ever a requirement to run master. Again that may have been the case at some point but it would have been prior to the turn of the century.
Is there a link to see the clubs financials, or do you have to be on the board? Treasurer's report is included in APLA Board Meeting Minutes. Those minutes are posted on this site for all members to view. Actually listed on the home page.
I do see where around $8000 was grossed on the SD test, not counting membership dues. What is there, like a dozen test a year? There are around 10 test per year. There is a huge difference between what a test grosses and what it nets. The fact that it covers costs is only due to the huge amount of time, and often equipment that APLA volunteers put into making it happen. As mentioned above, last year there was a surplus of income over expenses (after some past losses) and as a result, test fees were lowered for 2010.
Thanks to you guys for educating me, I am not trying to flush any feathers here There are lots of folks on here happy to answer questions and have more people involved in the organization. It is a very welcoming and friendly place. "...looks as though the APLA is more interested in making money.." is a provocative statement, maybe not meant that way and if so I appologize for getting my "feathers ruffled". Understand the "APLA" is a volunteer organization that, like many volunteer organizations, relies on a core group of people that sacrifice a lot of their time to put these tests on and make them a great experience for people. That includes our board members but also includes many other active, core members that are the "APLA". No one is motivated to do this to increase the organization's bank account. |
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Cruz, 4XGMPR HRCH MH ("CAT 6")
Yeager, MPR HR (Master Pointing Lap Dog)
Cody, 2XGMPR, MH (BAMF,RIP, Friend)
Runnin',Gunnin' & Pickin' Up the Chickens!
www.browngundogs.com
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DocFritz
Advanced Member
Posts:615
SW Iowa
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| 28 May 2010 11:58 AM |
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do forget that in addition to the tremendous amount of birds, there are travel expenses for judges.... I know for th tests that I chair for NAHRA travel expenses for judges is as much as the birds..... |
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Fritz Baier D.C.
GMHR-II WR SR MPR APR CPR Baier's Mighty Waldimar
MHR WR HR SR CPR Baier's Lady Gabrielle
Baier's Lady Legacy of TruPoint |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 28 May 2010 03:07 PM |
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I know for th tests that I chair for NAHRA travel expenses for judges is as much as the birds..... It adds up fast! I guess the only way to reduce that cost, is to certify judges located close to the test. Each test would have to be video taped to confirm the pass, if in question. |
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TC
Basic Member
Posts:172
Apple Valley, Minnesota
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| 30 May 2010 11:44 PM |
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Posted By FJR on 28 May 2010 03:07 PM
It adds up fast! I guess the only way to reduce that cost, is to certify judges located close to the test. Each test would have to be video taped to confirm the pass, if in question.
I have to agree with everything that Bruce has said. To my knowledge, the APR title was NEVER a prerequisite to MPR. Quail were used in Master (along with chuckar and pheasants) until about 2004 or so when the rules were changed because it's difficult to find pen-raised quail that fly well. Getting judges who live in various parts of the country definitely helps with logistics and with expenses. As a handler and APLA member, I like seeing judges from different parts of the country. It keeps our standards consistent across all regions. At the recent SD test, we had judges from South Dakota, Iowa, New York, Colorado, Minnesota, Kentucky, Wisconsin and probably somewhere else? We also had VERY nice test setups. The biggest expenses for our tests: birds, grounds, judge's travel, lodging, food for workers, equipment, and other misc. expenses such as printing. The board gets a report on revenue/expenses from every test, and the organization's finances are reported to the members via the meeting minutes. All of our Hunt Test Chairs have done a tremendous job of controlling expenses. I've been on both sides of the fence: I've forked out a lot of money in entry fees, and I've served several stints as HT Chair and HT Secretary. I know how difficult and expensive it is to hold a test, so as a handler, I've never felt like I've been gouged when paying an entry fee. From first-hand experience, I can tell you that it's not true to say that "the APLA is more interested in making money than ..." I would love to have video of some of our hunt tests, but just because it would be cool. I don't see any reason to verify or confirm anything with video. |
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3.5XGMPR GMHR Tub's Diamond in the Ruff "Coal"
CPR WR Points South Red Rock Rookie "Rookie" |
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1880
N.E. WA state
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| 31 May 2010 07:38 AM |
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I'm always amazed/amused that APLA is the only organization that requires an entry level pass in order to move up.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 31 May 2010 03:12 PM |
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I'm always amazed/amused that APLA is the only organization that requires an entry level pass in order to move up. requires an entry level pass in order to move up Thank You Doc! That is what this post is about. If the APLA realy wants to produce a better dog, this rule would being changed. The CPR test promotes alot of,"she has a cpr so now lets breed her". Whats that equal? A five second point, is a joke to IMO. |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 31 May 2010 03:18 PM |
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I don't see any reason to verify or confirm anything with video. I do, you never know what a person/breeder might do to get a judge to let some things slide. Every thing in this country boils down to politics sooner or later. IMO |
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keith maready
New Member
Posts:18
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| 31 May 2010 03:37 PM |
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FJR
Like you I've never testes in the APLA. Being in NC, I'm geographiclly chalenged but we're trying to get a test in the South East.
I will eventually get my 28mth Y/M QAA, MH tested in the APLA and may not agree with all rules / regs but will play by what is applicable at the time.
We hunt with my buddies and various "pointing breeds" in GA, SC, NC, VA and Texas. He finds and points with the best of them on the various wild quail. We also run guide service on two preserves on all three of the upland birds and have a waiting list of return customers. That said, I too am confused on why the requuired CP and totally agree with your statement, "she's a CP now let's breed her". |
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bsmiley
Advanced Member
Posts:988
Fishers Indiana
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| 31 May 2010 04:02 PM |
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I do, you never know what a person/breeder might do to get a judge to let some things slide. Every thing in this country boils down to politics sooner or later. IMO I guess I see where this is going now. I would have given you the benefit of the doubt on some of the earlier comments that you really felt you were making offhand comments directed at a faceless organization. I am starting to think now that there is a very good possibility that you realize comments like this are personally insulting to the individuals who donate their time and effort running around putting tests on and judging them. Or perhaps you just fankly don't care. You are certainly entitled to your cynical opinions but this would be the point in an actual conversation where I would have some excuse to go check on my dogs (or something) and remove myself from the situation. Hope you get your "questions" answered. |
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Cruz, 4XGMPR HRCH MH ("CAT 6")
Yeager, MPR HR (Master Pointing Lap Dog)
Cody, 2XGMPR, MH (BAMF,RIP, Friend)
Runnin',Gunnin' & Pickin' Up the Chickens!
www.browngundogs.com
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1880
N.E. WA state
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| 31 May 2010 04:13 PM |
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Posted By bsmiley on 31 May 2010 04:02 PM
I am starting to think now that you realize quite well that you are being personally insulting to the individuals who donate their time and effort running around putting tests on and judging them.
Makes me wonder why the NFL has instant replay.
Humans are only human and make mistakes............. Or are Judges infallible ?
(Too bad there wasn't a video of last year's WA test --- or was there?)
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 31 May 2010 05:17 PM |
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facesless organization I like the APLA, I just wonder what the reasons are for a required CPR test rule, before advancing. I have never tried to discredit NO ONE! I am starting to think now that you realize quite well that you are being personally insulting to the individuals who donate their time and effort running around putting tests on and judging them.
I have no clue as to how/why you would feel insulted? Its a simple requirement that alot of us don't like. I am glad to see the APLA is still here, and the reason it is here is because of guys like you who are devoted! I beleive in these dogs, just like you. |
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