I would love for there to be more tests in my area, but I'm in no position to chair an event so I can't really complain.

I think the APLA should stay true to the mission statement. If anyone has the new RJ, there is going to be an ongoing discussion about PL's. The author (I forget the name) said that he saw such huge interest in PL at an event that he simply had to start the discussion in RJ. I think this speaks volumes about our dogs and our organization.

Growth will come. Everytime we take the blind or field with someone that hasn't run behind a PL, let our dogs work do the talking. I firmly believe that if you have gotten to the Master level with a dog in the APLA, you will be a great representative for our club and our other dogs. I am in no way implying that dogs ceritfied at lower stakes aren't needed or good representatives. But like Frank said, look at the best example to draw conclusions from.

As is stands now, there are only four or five Master level dogs that I know of in the Northeast (excuse me if there are more but I'm pretty sure thats it). I don't think we have one 4X. With that few representatives, how can anyone with any sense make a judgement about our dogs, and our organization. The conclusions would be drawn on hearsay. There can be no converting people like that.

I get to hunt quite a lot during the season with a lot of different folks. There isn't one person that questions if labs can point naturally after walking behind Rain. They know me and know I couldn't trainin a dog to point if my life depended on it.  If my dog points it's because thats what she does, not that she was taught. I have the pleasure of hunting small backwoods ponds and big nasty open water, along with dense woods for grouse. I take my dog everywhere I go and I let her do the talking.

I'm a little surprised to see the tone in this thread. I was reading RJ and got a warm feeling inside when I read that article. Sometimes we want everything and we want it now, but maybe getting everything right now isn't the best thing that could happen. I know that there will be another Master dog this summer here in NY. There is a very talented young dog that has the skills. If he titles there will be 6 Master level dogs, thats a 20% increase. Looking at it in those terms I think we're doing OK.

Good thread. 

Posted By keskam on 18 May 2010 03:39 PM
... This will allow more handlers to progress there dog to higher levels, We have to find a way to help people to not just run dogs in CP but the rest of the levels, and not pro trained........If it is all pro trained dogs at upper levels then why have tests?

Posted By Jere on 18 May 2010 10:24 PM

Posted By keskam on 18 May 2010 03:39 PM
... This will allow more handlers to progress there dog to higher levels, We have to find a way to help people to not just run dogs in CP but the rest of the levels, and not pro trained........If it is all pro trained dogs at upper levels then why have tests?

Sorry, Kevin, if you've covered this in detail earlier...Repeat for me...

Just why is it, IYO, folks are not progressing their dogs past CP in APLA tests now? Don't the dogs point? or is it simply a difficulty developing (pointing) manners on birds? Retriever behavior issues? or what?

I don't get it, that is I don't get why you think they'd go any further in an HRC type test - especially if the issue is retriever behavior stuff. I do get it if the dogs don't point.

But if that's the case. they don't belong in APLA tests, n'est ce pas? Remember what the 'P' stands for!


Jere


No Jere, It has nothing to do with Point, It has to do with a total dog development, Since i have been involved with dogs in general the biggest setback i see at tests is the guys that do not belong to a club and dont get the help they need with there dogs,to give them the tools they need to advance to higher levels are not around anymore, I have seen some really nice Master level dogs, that are Cp dogs that can point (naturally) that have never moved on to higher levels because they DONT KNOW HOW TO TRAIN.

Were the more PL clubs that get started, the better chance we as a organization have of helping them achieve what they want with there dog,

At the last test, I seen a few dogs that i know are awsome in the field never make it to upland because of there knowledge of marks and blinds, Not there fault just lack of help IMO. And i would bet most dogs that dont pass a master test dont make it to the upland, IMO\\



This thread has nothing to do with how a dog points..

Posted By Jere on 18 May 2010 10:24 PM

Posted By keskam on 18 May 2010 03:39 PM
... This will allow more handlers to progress there dog to higher levels, We have to find a way to help people to not just run dogs in CP but the rest of the levels, and not pro trained........If it is all pro trained dogs at upper levels then why have tests?

Sorry, Kevin, if you've covered this in detail earlier...Repeat for me...

Just why is it, IYO, folks are not progressing their dogs past CP in APLA tests now? Don't the dogs point? or is it simply a difficulty developing (pointing) manners on birds? Retriever behavior issues? or what?

I don't get it, that is I don't get why you think they'd go any further in an HRC type test - especially if the issue is retriever behavior stuff. I do get it if the dogs don't point.

But if that's the case. they don't belong in APLA tests, n'est ce pas? Remember what the 'P' stands for!


Jere

Posted By keskam on 19 May 2010 04:55 AM
... At the last test, I seen a few dogs that i know are awsome in the field never make it to upland because of there knowledge of marks and blinds, Not there fault just lack of help IMO. And i would bet most dogs that dont pass a master test dont make it to the upland, IMO\\



This thread has nothing to do with how a dog points..

I agree with Keskam about the help of a local club.  I am new to retriever training, much less the aspects of a PL.  Without the help of local club members and video media, I would be at a loss.  I am geographically isolated from the PL world, and don't have such PL mentors.  With that in mind, and the fact that APLA seems to be at a crossroads for needed growth, how do we make that step to the next level?

The field trialers / retriever test folks have a lot more training media to draw from...Lardy DVDs, Smartworks, Roerem, etc.  They started small and grew just as we are.  Would it be possible to have APLA promote/provide seed money for the development of a APLA/PL training video?  Could we APLA members pre-order/pre-pay for said DVDs to provide seed funding?  These DVDs could promote our "breed".  To showcase the elite and successful trainers (Julie K, Mike Letteau, ???)   It could demonstrate some of the abilities and skills of some "Best of Breed" GMPRs.  Snipets could be used to attract newcomers by posting them for viewing on this site and Youtube (as Evan G. does).  They could be marketed at this site, as well as Pheasant Fest, DU events, dog tests, Sporting Shows, etc.  It might attract and aid some of us amateurs to reach the CP level and beyond...to generate the interest and training confidence for amateurs to take the next step, become more invovled.  Maybe even aid this organization to move to the next level through it's promotion and attraction. 

Just some thoughts.

Greg

PS- This was not intended to promote any specific individual/kennel/dogs.  Merely used some recognized names to make a point.

Posted By TC on 18 May 2010 02:11 PM
... [1. ] Breed registry that limits breeding to only APLA-titled dogs? I'm dead set against that. I've met too many people over the years who have awesome PL's out of bloodlines with no hint of APLA titles. Every year we meet people at Pheasant Fest who buy a lab and once they start hunting them, the lab points! They're some of the most enthusiastic new APLA members, and now we should exclude them? Turning these people away not only limits growth of the APLA, but also significantly narrows our gene pool. Finding new outcrosses to breed to our PL's is good for lots of reasons.

[2. ]... As for the quote from a "versatile" guy who hunted with pointing labs?  I try not to believe everything I read on the internet.

Posted By OD on 20 May 2010 01:58 AM
* Defeats the purpose of the organization. The objectives are clear even on the home page. One thing I think would be interesting is invite any registered pointing breed to play the game. Have an open division possibly. Why not step out of the box and lead? Great opportunity to educate everyone. I think there would be some surprises on both sides of the fence. Personally I think we need to raise the bar on our expectations for upland work especially for advanced dogs. Too many people training for the magical 5 seconds. 15 seconds or just enough to get by with a title. Train for a test. Pass the CP breed like crazy. I think it is a disservice to the breed. Well bred trained dogs are capable of much more.
My rule of thumb. If I let my dog run big and they pin a bird I am not running across a field to try and get there before a dog breaks. Anyone that has hunted or gone to a test has seen this.

**I should be able to walk there calmly while my dog does what they know how to do very well.

I think it is reasonable to expect a dog to stay put. How long is that?Obviously depends.

***A finished dog should stay put for long as it takes to get there. Could be 15 seconds or 5 minutes. AT least that is my opinion and the way I train. That is my expectations.

I would also like to see scoring look more like NAVHDA. I think it is a better way in some respects. We need To keep our eye and ears open as an organization. There is much to learn! Gary PRG

Jere,

There are definitely a lot of people in the PL world that feel the same way that you do about the retriever side of the game.  I often hunt my dogs on pheasants and waterfowl in the same day, and I demand a high level of performance when doing both.  I get a huge kick out of nice dog work:  front-footing a difficult mark, smoking a blind, locking up on a staunch point, or trailing a wounded bird... it's all good, and these dogs have a ton of talent.

We're criticized by the pointer and v-dog folks because our dogs don't point as well as "real pointing dogs".  There are plenty of examples of PL's that are just so-so, but you and I have both seen some incredible POINTING labs.  If you go to the retriever forums, you'll see we also get criticized on that side of the fence - people claiming that PL's don't retrieve as well as "regular labs".  I can also give you tons of examples of PL's that are extremely successful at the Master levels of the retriever game.

I'm with Gary.  The way to quiet the critics is to set extremely high standards for our dogs, on both the upland and retriever side of the game.  It's hard work but very rewarding:  train way beyond what's required to pass a test.  Then quietly go out and run your dogs in VHDF, NAGDA, AKC, HRC, NAHRA, and any other venue that will have you.  There's absolutely no need to brag or "talk up" PL's, let your dog do the talking.  I've never heard any PL critics at ribbon ceremonies.

Posted By TC on 20 May 2010 08:46 AM

Jere,

There are definitely a lot of people in the PL world that feel the same way that you do about the retriever side of the game.  I often hunt my dogs on pheasants and waterfowl in the same day, and I demand a high level of performance when doing both.  I get a huge kick out of nice dog work:  front-footing a difficult mark, smoking a blind, locking up on a staunch point, or trailing a wounded bird... it's all good, and these dogs have a ton of talent.

We're criticized by the pointer and v-dog folks because our dogs don't point as well as "real pointing dogs".  There are plenty of examples of PL's that are just so-so, but you and I have both seen some incredible POINTING labs.  If you go to the retriever forums, you'll see we also get criticized on that side of the fence - people claiming that PL's don't retrieve as well as "regular labs".  I can also give you tons of examples of PL's that are extremely successful at the Master levels of the retriever game.

I'm with Gary.  The way to quiet the critics is to set extremely high standards for our dogs, on both the upland and retriever side of the game.  It's hard work but very rewarding:  train way beyond what's required to pass a test.  Then quietly go out and run your dogs in VHDF, NAGDA, AKC, HRC, NAHRA, and any other venue that will have you.  There's absolutely no need to brag or "talk up" PL's, let your dog do the talking.  I've never heard any PL critics at ribbon ceremonies.

Posted By Paco on 25 May 2010 09:18 PM
Agree wholeheartedly Jere. One of your bets posts IMO.

Posted By Jere on 28 May 2010 12:40 AM

Posted By Paco on 25 May 2010 09:18 PM
Agree wholeheartedly Jere. One of your bets posts IMO.

Thanks, Frank. That IS your best one!! IMO

Jere