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 Tuesday, February 07, 2012
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Pointing Lab Forums
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Growth???
Last Post 28 May 2010 07:56 AM by Paco. 39 Replies. |
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1544
Pierce, Colorado
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| 14 May 2010 04:45 PM |
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What if the APLA was to open there tests up to flushing dogs? Have a flushing and Pointing division?
Just a thought to help this grow...
I think it would work here since there is no NAHRA...... |
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
HRCH Rocky Mountain Rosco SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
HRCH Satin's Jumpin Jedi SH
HR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
MPR HRCH KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
HR KB's Loaded To Go Allie JH
CP HR KB's Blazin' White Thunder (Blaze) JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty JH
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DocFritz
Advanced Member
Posts:615
SW Iowa
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| 15 May 2010 06:55 AM |
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I have wondered about a symbiotic relationship between the two organizations.....
both are small(ish) maverick non conforming organizations.... in that I mean that "the establishment" says that labs should flush and have AKC/HRC titles as nonslip retrievers, we say that dogs should be well rounded and balenced and move from a morning duck hunt to the pheasentt field |
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Fritz Baier D.C.
GMHR-II WR SR MPR APR CPR Baier's Mighty Waldimar
MHR WR HR SR CPR Baier's Lady Gabrielle
Baier's Lady Legacy of TruPoint |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:646
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| 15 May 2010 02:14 PM |
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Would you change the name and mission of the APLA too?
Why not just start a local chapter (or whateverthey are called) of NAHRA?
Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Freddie Adams
New Member
Posts:77
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| 15 May 2010 06:34 PM |
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What if the APLA was to open there tests up to flushing dogs? Have a flushing and Pointing division?
Thats an excellent idea!
I hate to think negative, but I think the APLA will die if we don't get the younger generation into this. That goes for all hunting related activities, not just the APLA. Kids just don't have the drive to hunt like we did at their age. |
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1544
Pierce, Colorado
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| 15 May 2010 06:54 PM |
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Posted By Jere on 15 May 2010 02:14 PM
Would you change the name and mission of the APLA too?
Why not just start a local chapter (or whateverthey are called) of NAHRA?
Jere
Just thinking outside the box Jere,, This is how organizations grow buy ideas for growth.,
You always got to stay one step ahead or you will float downstream and die. Any other ideas?? |
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
HRCH Rocky Mountain Rosco SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
HRCH Satin's Jumpin Jedi SH
HR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
MPR HRCH KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
HR KB's Loaded To Go Allie JH
CP HR KB's Blazin' White Thunder (Blaze) JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty JH
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micahd
Basic Member
Posts:121
Boise Idaho
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| 15 May 2010 11:22 PM |
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Coming from the younger generation a few years ago I can tell you one thing. There are a lot more things that you can do that are way easier and require less responsibiltiy and time than training a dog. Mentor programs maybe would help get some younger people involved?? I would encourage the expansion of APLA to include AFLA. Just by getting people to our events period is the goal isnt it?? Think about it this way. Getting people to come to an event whether flushing or pointing will grow the group. I can guarantee as well if we where running a flushing division as well that when entrants got a chance to watch the "pointing" test it would open up a whole new world. Once they see what a pointing lab can and will do that will open up them to wanting one of "those POINTING" dogs.
I know the HRC has some upland divisions you can run as well as the retrieving stuff. Maybe somebody can give us some input. |
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| "Often imitated never duplicated"
CPR Duffys Fire Eyed Jade
CPR Duffys Jazzed up Rippin Ruby of Rattlingridge
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Maximillion
Basic Member
Posts:336
Clayton, North Carolina
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| 16 May 2010 03:59 AM |
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Being new to all of this, I think opening up to the flushing and having a flusing test would be great for the club. I do know for HRC the rules say the dog must flush. One reason why I will not Run Max in upland for HRC. Mike and I just got Max to be steady, I don't want to ruin it now. Maybe in a few years when Max is older. |
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Richard McCullough
2.5XGMPR HR Lankas Labs Brandys Maximillion SH "Max"
Rick's Rooster Smasher of DRL "Eli"
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2Blackdogs!
Veteran Member
Posts:1623
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEF !
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| 16 May 2010 04:25 AM |
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Honestly where we are successful there is no way we could handle more dogs / handlers / fields etc etc. The tests in KS amd MO have constantly stretched the day the grounds and the people to the end. Colorado and Iowa events also at least most of the time so doing this as the norm just does not seem pratical. Personally I have no desire to work other venue hunt tests either. All that aside this concept could be helpful out in those fringe areas where there does not seem to be enough of a PL population to promote tests. Not sure we ever did hear what happened up in the NW this spring but I think up there they are on the way to being able to stand alone but down in CA and way back east and South east who knows. Then again not sure why you would have a PL down in Florida-maybe point out a 'Gator' issue- heck I bet they taste like chicken  |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:646
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| 16 May 2010 11:23 AM |
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Posted By 2Blackdogs! on 16 May 2010 04:25 AM
... Then again not sure why you would have a PL down in Florida-maybe point out a 'Gator' issue- heck I bet they taste like chicken
Apparently you never heard of bobwhite quail, in some minds the ultimate pointing dog quarry?
Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:646
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| 16 May 2010 12:01 PM |
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Posted By keskam on 15 May 2010 06:54 PM
Posted By Jere on 15 May 2010 02:14 PM
Would you change the name and mission of the APLA too?
Why not just start a local chapter (or whateverthey are called) of NAHRA?
Jere
Just thinking outside the box Jere,, This is how organizations grow buy ideas for growth.,
You always got to stay one step ahead or you will float downstream and die.
Any other ideas??
Ya, Keep your eye on the prize, stick to the goal - to produce strains of Labradors that truly point as a natural act. Be ruthless about granting titles only to dogs that really do so. Offer a true natural ability test for young dogs - say up to 18 months (MAX - less would be better) where the dog has to show natural point (as best that can be determined) and other appropriate characteristics for a pointing retriever or it fails and cannot ever carry a PL title or be bred as a PL. Start a registry of Pointing Labs and disqualify dogs which fail at the initial test level from breeding. Encourage members to show their true pointing Labs. in every venue that looks at pointing dogs that will let you in... Those PNW folks looking for a test venue should be taking their young dogs to the tests of the VHDF (vhdf.org) before that organization grows so large it won't test them! Ditto in the upper midwest! That includes plain old hunting - I find it hard to support the concept of a "pointing Lab." on other forums when folks come on and say stuff like this:
I spent the past week hunting in Iowa with some "pointing" Labs. Didn't see one point out of them all week long -- saw them refuse a couple of retrieves and give up on other downed birds, however. The real beauty was that they mostly hunted just out of gun range for a flusher. The true versatile dogs along on the trip did pick up the slack and made the retrieves, found the downed birds and pointed enough live ones to offer shooting to all. These "pointing" Labs have passed the tests offered them through the pointing Lab organization.
PLs are now the laughing stock among pointing and versatile dog folk. The American POINTING Labrador Association has to figure out how to change that before expanding its focus to include non-pointing Labs. and becoming the AVHLA. Doing as you suggest will have the opposite effect. Growth for growths sake is a ridiculous philosophy which breeds mediocrity and all sorts of other ills. Just look around the world and country right now, for proof. Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Liv2Hnt
Basic Member
Posts:472
Overland Park, KS
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| 16 May 2010 05:52 PM |
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IF you want to see the APLA grow,encourage traditional lab folks to come watch an APLA event, Run your pointing labs in BDC or UFTA events and try hunting them like pointing dogs instead of flushers and by that I mean dont have them hunt in gun range. Encourage people to learn more about the development of the lab as a breed and why it is natural for some of them to point. I have experienced the same thing as Jere references from the versatile dog quote .....I dont know how many people Ive run in to who have a "pointing lab" that has never pointed or couldnt be trusted to be on point long enough for the gunner to get in range so they hack the dog in to staying in gun range. Some of this is knowing how to train a pointing dog, some of it is genetics and many people just dont know any better or have been hornswaggled by a supposed pointing lab breeder. I think the person in the quote had made up his mind as to what the "true versatile gun dogs" were before he ever hunted over the PLs he referenced, but the fact remains that there are a lot more doubters(among traditional pointers and retrievers) out there than believers. You can change them one at a time with solid dog work, but that is what it is going to take, time and patience.
I honestly beleive that the APLA some of its breeders and many of its members will have a positive impact and the organization will grow and that more people will be interested in pointing labs. There are plenty of venues for people to test their upland flushing dogs. The entire purpose of the organization is to further the cause of the pointing lab, to encourage breeders to continue to develop better and better PLs and to help educate people as to what a pointing lab really is.
I love watching many breeds of dogs work and can enjoy a good flushing lab work almost as much as I can a good pointing lab, but to take the focus away from the APLA by testing upland flushing dogs would be a great disservice to the organization and to pointing labs. |
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| Edward McNally
Amateur trainer/ owner/ rookie handler of:
4 X GMPR HRCH McNally's Right Stuff Ridley (5 MH Passes) |
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1544
Pierce, Colorado
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| 16 May 2010 08:15 PM |
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Great discussion some for some against.  So Steve made some good points, to many dogs and not enough grounds, how do we solve this, i am sure there are more grounds to be had, maybe more tests, i mean think about it, If a guy only runs in Colorado with his dog it will take him around 6 years to become a 4x GMPR, so why not more tests? I do notice that are tests are set up not to interfere with AKC or HRC tests, why not have a test down south in Feb? And maybe in July in Montana? just thoughts...  |
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
HRCH Rocky Mountain Rosco SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
HRCH Satin's Jumpin Jedi SH
HR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
MPR HRCH KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
HR KB's Loaded To Go Allie JH
CP HR KB's Blazin' White Thunder (Blaze) JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty JH
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Paco
Advanced Member
Posts:839
On a trout stream in NW, MI.
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| 17 May 2010 08:05 AM |
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I haven't been around the APLA for real long. It looks to me that the dogs are getting better than what I first saw a few years ago. Makes me wonder how good the foundation dogs really were ? I don't want any of my dogs on anything but BIRDS, no fur for this guy. That alone turns me off to some of the testing for versatiles. Also agree with Ed, and Jere. Stay the course. Breed to improve. The training seems to be improving also. With that said, I still think people are holding their dogs back by hunting them in gun range......had to say that
You want growth? The better the dogwork, brutal honesty about the talent pool and what is a good point, breed to improve, APLA will grow.............Paco |
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________________________________________
Founding member- Michigan Mafia (aka MM ;)
4X GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "GATOR"
GMPR HRCH HRKs Liberators Outlaw "RONDO" SH
GMPR VeraGators Smokin' Diablo of G'Force "SMOKEY"
Trust your dogs - Let 'em Roll
www.gforceretrievers.com
Outlaw Upland~Waterfowl Labs
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hooligan
Veteran Member
Posts:1316
Pac NW
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| 17 May 2010 08:44 AM |
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I'm with Jere-I'd love to see the APLA become a sort of PL breed club, and evaluate our dogs with scores from an impartial venue that tests ANY breed of gun dog. The retrieving part can be tested through AKC and HRC-the dog world in general recognizes what those titles mean. But if we want to add validity to the APLA titles, it would be nice to have evaluations from a versatile group to back them up. VHDF tests are like NAVHDA tests, but without a breed registry attached. That's the world a good PL should belong to, IMO-and it would prove to the nay-sayers that we don't just have a bunch of labs trained to point.
And, I'm with the folks who let their dogs have some range. If you have to keep your dog in gun range to be able to shoot what your dog is pointing, then you might as well have a flusher. |
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| APR SHR TDK's Dusty Gunslinger JH "Churchill"
CPR Max's Black Diamond Girl Scout JH "Scout" |
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DocFritz
Advanced Member
Posts:615
SW Iowa
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| 17 May 2010 11:01 AM |
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Posted By keskam on 16 May 2010 08:15 PM
Great discussion some for some against. So Steve made some good points, to many dogs and not enough grounds, how do we solve this, i am sure there are more grounds to be had, maybe more tests, i mean think about it, If a guy only runs in Colorado with his dog it will take him around 6 years to become a 4x GMPR, so why not more tests? I do notice that are tests are set up not to interfere with AKC or HRC tests, why not have a test down south in Feb? And maybe in July in Montana? just thoughts... Too many more tests and you would be looking at master only (or almost only) tests. There are only so many people out there that are gonna run any thing more then CPR with their dogs, only so many that are even going to run CPR. We see it in NAHRA a lot, as the spring cluster of tests adds more tests, there are fewere and fewer lower level dogs at each. The guys running for MHR and higher will go to more tests, but when you only need four passes for a started title, why travel? With CPR and APR titles only requiring ONE pass I would think that it would be more of a situation with APLA tests. Tough to pay for a test without a large CPR base to pay the bills. So do you have MASTER ONLY TESTS? That is not a good way to get growth of new people..... |
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Fritz Baier D.C.
GMHR-II WR SR MPR APR CPR Baier's Mighty Waldimar
MHR WR HR SR CPR Baier's Lady Gabrielle
Baier's Lady Legacy of TruPoint |
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Paco
Advanced Member
Posts:839
On a trout stream in NW, MI.
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| 17 May 2010 11:27 AM |
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Kinda forgot this thought.
As to the nay-sayers, and the PLs being the laughing stock to a bunch of folks on another forum.
I think we've all seen some bad gundogs of any breed, that is what maybe most people hunt behind, half trained dogs, and I'm being kind.
Well if I wanted to disparage other breeds, by the dogwork I've seen when guiding amongst various pointing/versatile breeds then I could have a field day. As I like to say , "Better to keep your mouth shut, and form your opinions after you see the good ones ( not the run of the mill ), of any breed."
I think running down an others choice of breed for a gundog, to make yourself feel superior is speaking volumes about the characters on some of the forums.
I also think that some of those with PLs that don't quite measure up to what the owner was expecting can often be traced to lack of knowledge, training, buying into marketing more than really doing your research on the dogs/litters/kennels/etc.
I hear it all the time, I want my dog to do it all naturally, and again some seem to think "all" naturally, up to finished bird manners. Ya' think the elite pointers even have that ability without training ?
Well lunch is over, gotta go back out and train some of these dogs that really don't even belong in the upland.....LOL ! That's for you _ _ _ _ _ If you are out there.
We all know that internet dogs are perfect don't we.
Sorry to diverge, carry on. |
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________________________________________
Founding member- Michigan Mafia (aka MM ;)
4X GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "GATOR"
GMPR HRCH HRKs Liberators Outlaw "RONDO" SH
GMPR VeraGators Smokin' Diablo of G'Force "SMOKEY"
Trust your dogs - Let 'em Roll
www.gforceretrievers.com
Outlaw Upland~Waterfowl Labs
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1544
Pierce, Colorado
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| 17 May 2010 07:29 PM |
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OK, So if most everybody wants just PLs in these tests, then i would think the key for growth would be the clubs and expansion of clubs, not only for pointng but for hunt test work, WHY, because i would bet 80% plus run there dog in CPR, Get there Title then quit, Why do they quit, because they dont have the knowledge to take the dog to another level,
Think about it guys, how many would stick around if they had help?
I think the clubs are so important in this growth, I like our HRC club in Wyoming because we train for hunt tests and PL hunt tests. and we train all the time,,
PLs as a Breeding club? I dont think so for me, I dont like the Gov. telling me what i can and cant do let alone some organization telling me who i can and cant breed to! Remember these are labs first IMO.
Kevin |
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
HRCH Rocky Mountain Rosco SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
HRCH Satin's Jumpin Jedi SH
HR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
MPR HRCH KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
HR KB's Loaded To Go Allie JH
CP HR KB's Blazin' White Thunder (Blaze) JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty JH
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TC
Basic Member
Posts:172
Apple Valley, Minnesota
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| 18 May 2010 02:11 PM |
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Tons of topics which give me lots of random thoughts...
I'm opposed to adding flushing dogs to the APLA events. We are a pointing lab organization and need to maintain our focus on our mission statement.
I don't like "growth" as a goal for anything. Can't we call the APLA successful in its present form? I agree with Frank - the talent level of PL's has increased tremendously since I've been involved, and I expect that trend to continue. The APLA world is already growing, and I'm not sure that we have a gene pool that will support exponential growth. If we continue to do things right, our slow but steady growth will continue, and the talent level of our dogs will also continue to improve.
More hunt tests: Yes, it's difficult to find adequate grounds for an APLA event, but that's not why there aren't more hunt tests. Our biggest limiting factor is finding Hunt Test Chairs willing to do all the hard work. We've held small tests and have always been willing to lose money on a test in order to get a test in a new region. A January test in Texas or Georgia? I'm all for it - somebody needs to put together a test application that makes sense.
Breed registry that limits breeding to only APLA-titled dogs? I'm dead set against that. I've met too many people over the years who have awesome PL's out of bloodlines with no hint of APLA titles. Every year we meet people at Pheasant Fest who buy a lab and once they start hunting them, the lab points! They're some of the most enthusiastic new APLA members, and now we should exclude them? Turning these people away not only limits growth of the APLA, but also significantly narrows our gene pool. Finding new outcrosses to breed to our PL's is good for lots of reasons.
Run your dogs in AKC, NAHRA, HRC, NAGDA, VHDF, and anyone else who will let you run your dog. Show people that PL's can do the retriever work just as well as any other lab, and will also maintain a staunch point in the upland. APLA titles are great... but a dog with top-level titles from multiple organizations gets a tip of my hat.
Hunting in gun range vs. out of gun range? I want my dogs to hunt however they need to hunt in each given situation. Weather conditions, bird species, cover type and density all dictate different requirements. A really nice dog will hunt however you need him/her to hunt, and you should have the ability to let your dog run big or reign them in - sometimes different styles are needed even from field to field within the same day's hunt.
As for the quote from a "versatile" guy who hunted with pointing labs? I try not to believe everything I read on the internet.
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3.5XGMPR GMHR Tub's Diamond in the Ruff "Coal"
CPR WR Points South Red Rock Rookie "Rookie" |
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hooligan
Veteran Member
Posts:1316
Pac NW
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| 18 May 2010 03:11 PM |
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OK-I need to clarify. "Breed club" was obviously the wrong term. VHDF tests dogs and gives scores. What the owners/organizations/breed clubs/whatever you want to call them does with the results is up to them. I think it would be good for pointing labs to have that type of data. It is yet another way to evaluate dogs-and it would be a way to evaluate PLs that haven't been tested in APLA. I am NOT suggesting that only APLA titled dogs be bred as pointing labs, or that any organization dictates who to breed or not breed. Both of my PLs have FC-AFC sires and neither of them has run an APLA test-I am all about diverse genetics. |
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| APR SHR TDK's Dusty Gunslinger JH "Churchill"
CPR Max's Black Diamond Girl Scout JH "Scout" |
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keskam
Veteran Member
Posts:1544
Pierce, Colorado
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| 18 May 2010 03:39 PM |
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Posted By TC on 18 May 2010 02:11 PM
Tons of topics which give me lots of random thoughts...
I'm opposed to adding flushing dogs to the APLA events. We are a pointing lab organization and need to maintain our focus on our mission statement.
I don't like "growth" as a goal for anything. Can't we call the APLA successful in its present form? I agree with Frank - the talent level of PL's has increased tremendously since I've been involved, and I expect that trend to continue. The APLA world is already growing, and I'm not sure that we have a gene pool that will support exponential growth. If we continue to do things right, our slow but steady growth will continue, and the talent level of our dogs will also continue to improve.
More hunt tests: Yes, it's difficult to find adequate grounds for an APLA event, but that's not why there aren't more hunt tests. Our biggest limiting factor is finding Hunt Test Chairs willing to do all the hard work. We've held small tests and have always been willing to lose money on a test in order to get a test in a new region. A January test in Texas or Georgia? I'm all for it - somebody needs to put together a test application that makes sense.
Breed registry that limits breeding to only APLA-titled dogs? I'm dead set against that. I've met too many people over the years who have awesome PL's out of bloodlines with no hint of APLA titles. Every year we meet people at Pheasant Fest who buy a lab and once they start hunting them, the lab points! They're some of the most enthusiastic new APLA members, and now we should exclude them? Turning these people away not only limits growth of the APLA, but also significantly narrows our gene pool. Finding new outcrosses to breed to our PL's is good for lots of reasons.
Run your dogs in AKC, NAHRA, HRC, NAGDA, VHDF, and anyone else who will let you run your dog. Show people that PL's can do the retriever work just as well as any other lab, and will also maintain a staunch point in the upland. APLA titles are great... but a dog with top-level titles from multiple organizations gets a tip of my hat.
Hunting in gun range vs. out of gun range? I want my dogs to hunt however they need to hunt in each given situation. Weather conditions, bird species, cover type and density all dictate different requirements. A really nice dog will hunt however you need him/her to hunt, and you should have the ability to let your dog run big or reign them in - sometimes different styles are needed even from field to field within the same day's hunt.
As for the quote from a "versatile" guy who hunted with pointing labs? I try not to believe everything I read on the internet.
Nice Post TC, I would like to see alot of clubs come out of this IMO like HRC, This will allow more handlers to progress there dog to higher levels, We have to find a way to help people to not just run dogs in CP but the rest of the levels, and not pro trained........If it is all pro trained dogs at upper levels then why have tests?
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4XGMPR HRCH KBs Snakey Jake of Poudre River SH
HRCH Rocky Mountain Rosco SH
APR HRCH Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
HRCH Satin's Jumpin Jedi SH
HR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
MPR HRCH KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) JH
HR KB's Loaded To Go Allie JH
CP HR KB's Blazin' White Thunder (Blaze) JH
CP SHR KB'S Misty's Mighty Trooper Dusty JH
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