Posted By tuckerminden on 23 Mar 2010 06:44 PM
In the HRC rules on Upland it says that the dog must put up the bird.  How to we get around that with the pointing labs? I see that there are some of APLA dogs with the UH title.

It is an easy answer, but not one that I stomach easily.  I enjoy and appreciate HRC events and would love to give them a demonstration of what my dog can do in the upland field.  As you know, there is a great pleasure in exposing new people to pointing labradors.  That said, I'll be damned if I'll change those characteristics that make my dog special to suit their prejudices.  Being a division of the UKC, it is their stated purpose to encourage the breeding of dogs emphasizing hunting abilities.  To that I say, bravo, so encourage it.  Don't create rules that limit it to a certain approved style.

There are some of us that would love to run our dogs in the Grand, but it has an upland requirement.  We fail before we start unless we train our dogs down to their standards.

An idea just struck me as I wrote that.  Perhaps next fall, if the Kalamazoo HRC has an upland hunt, we should get all of the best pointing labs in the area and enter them.  Flood the field with high level PL's.  I would invite all of the UKC honchos that live in the K-zoo area to come watch the hunt and after they fail all of our dogs for running big and kicking the crap out of the flushers, we may make some headway in changing hearts and minds.  Besides, I think we'ed have a ball.

I know a lot of people in the APLA don't like to make waves, but I am a born cannonballer.  I say we fight.

Posted By bwright27 on 25 Mar 2010 02:00 AM

I would invite all of the UKC honchos that live in the K-zoo area to come watch the hunt and after they fail all of our dogs for running big and kicking the crap out of the flushers, we may make some headway in changing hearts and minds.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread with my 2:00 AM insomniac rant.  Doc gives about the only solution to the basic problem under the current HRC rules in his first reply.  I just don't think that it is a good thing to teach most PL's and would certainly have mixed results with many dogs.  I know of one fine dog who's owner/trainer is going to try to teach just that after he finishes his APLA run so that he can have a chance in the Grand.

That said:

Doc,

HRC also recognizes several other pointing breeds as eligible for retrieving events.  I have seen a few of them pass high level retrieving hunt tests.  It wouldn't just be pointing labs that benefit from the rule change.  It would not be that hard to coach judges to recognize and grade the two different hunting styles.  I am not talking about subtracting from the flushers.  Just adding for the pointers.

Mountain G,

Gosh, a guy who believes passionately that pointing labs are a superior hunting dog.  On an pointing lab web site.  Who'd a thunk it ?  I know, maybe I'm being a jerk, but I still think it would be a blast, and just a little bit satisfying.

TC,

Though everything I've heard about NAHRA has been good, where I live the HRC is very popular.  Kalamazoo is the home base and the opportunity to affect policy may be slightly higher for us who can get better personal exposure to the policy makers.  Plus, Michigan and the upper midwest is a hot spot for some really fine pointing labs.  If we made the effort, I'm sure that we could round up a significant number of quality dogs to run in the upland and make our case.

Probably won't happen, but we'll never get what we want if we don't stand up and be noticed.  You may be able to catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but you know what works even better?  A bug zapper.

Posted By TC on 25 Mar 2010 10:53 AM 
1.  NAHRA rules don't require your dog to physically flush the bird or do something crazy like knock over a wire cage. 

2. I've run NAHRA events with birds planted similar to APLA tests, but usually the birds are in a launcher box, and the judge has the remote.  When my dog has gone on point, the judges have always agreed to let him stay on point for a bit prior to launching the bird.

3. A judge talked to me last year after I ran under him the first time.  He said at first, he was worried about my dog being on the edge of gun range.  When my dog locked up solid, we walked up for a nice easy shot.  He told me that our upland score was a "10", but he wished he could give us a "15".

Posted By bwright27 on 25 Mar 2010 12:56 PM

Doc

HRC also recognizes several other pointing breeds as eligible for retrieving events.  I have seen a few of them pass high level retrieving hunt tests.  It wouldn't just be pointing labs that benefit from the rule change.  It would not be that hard to coach judges to recognize and grade the two different hunting styles.  I am not talking about subtracting from the flushers.  Just adding for the pointers.

I am the HRC Region 14 PR Representative, and as such, I have voting rights at the National Meetings.

I brought this up on the HRC Forum last year and was soundly told that there will NOT be two sets of Rules  (Flushing & Pointing) in HRC Upland.

I'll try to find the thread and put the link up -- I don't know if the thread is still in the archives or not.

Doc,

Can you point me to that discussion on the NAHRA site if you have it?  A PM is fine, we don't need to have a NAHRA discussion on the APLA site.  I just read through the rulebook and didn't find anywhere that it says that the dog must flush the bird.

My dog has passed 8 Senior tests now, and I'll run a bunch more this summer.  I'm always sure to talk to the judges prior to running the upland, and I've never been told that my dog has to physically flush the bird.  The response that I've always gotten from the judges in the midwest is something like:  "We're simulating hunting, so I want to see how you and your dog would hunt this field."  When using launcher boxes like they usually do, they let the dog go on point, and then after a few seconds, they launch the bird.  It's not safe for a dog or human to be within 10 feet of a launcher box when it's released.

The judges at all the midwest tests look for some pretty basic stuff:  Find birds, produce them within gun range, and do it in a safe manner.  In other words, the ways to fail are:  1) Run out of control.  2) Bump birds out of gun range.  3) Don't hunt/quarter with enthusiasm and intelligence.  4) Don't remain steady after a bird is flushed and/or shot.

I'll be sure not to run my dogs in Washington if things are done differently there.  Hmmm...Come to think of it, one of my Senior passes last year was under a Washington judge, and he commented about how he LOVED the way all the midwest dogs hunted.

Posted By TC on 26 Mar 2010 04:45 PM

Doc,

1. Can you point me to that discussion on the NAHRA site if you have it?  A PM is fine, we don't need to have a NAHRA discussion on the APLA site.  I just read through the rulebook and didn't find anywhere that it says that the dog must flush the bird.

2. My dog has passed 8 Senior tests now, and I'll run a bunch more this summer.  I'm always sure to talk to the judges prior to running the upland, and I've never been told that my dog has to physically flush the bird. 

1. I've searched and searched and it doesn't seem to be there anymore --- However, the "Quote" I put in above was a PM from the Board.

The Rules say that the dog "should" Flush the bird -- and there was a HUGE discussion on the forum about the difference between "should" and "must"................ It was after that when I got the PM.

2. I always tell the judges (that don't already know) that my dog is going to Point the bird (unless I bring him in from upwind) and want to know if that is good enough or if they want the dog to make the flush........... Only a couple of times did the Judge say, "I'll release the trap after your dog has been on point awhile"............. One judge asked me to, "Please let Casey go on point so that people can take pictures".............. So I did (it was announced to the gallery that a Lab was going to point, and that if anybody wanted to take pics that they should go get their cameras ---------- Lots of them did).
The rest of the Judges (one was the Pres of NAHRA at the time) told me EMPHATICALLY that in their opinion the dog had to make the flush.


As far as just being in WA, most of the judges we have run under were imports.

So, with your dog being MHR, are you going to run in the Invitational (RAW) in June ? (It's going to be in Spoakne).


.

Doc,

I'm not too worried about a judge telling me that my dog has to flush - thankfully it hasn't happened.  If it were to ever happen???  I'd probably call my dog off point, heel him away from the bird, and make a big circle so my dog comes in from the upwind side.  It would be EXTREMELY ugly, and it would make the whole test look silly, but I'd make my "point".  My other option, which might even be better, would be to "whoa" my dog and just leave him there.  Then just wait until the judges either launch the bird or tell me to pick up my dog.  I won't ever teach my dog to flush a bird - that's not worth one ribbon.

I see the statement from the "guidelines" section of the NAHRA rules:  "Ideally, a dog should find and flush its own game."  However, I don't read that as an absolute, and if you read the rules as a whole, there are lots of statements in the rules that give the judges wide latitude.  That very same paragraph also says that "An electronic trap or traps can be used and should be located near the end of the bird field."  It's another "should" that gets thrown out often... at the 2008 RAW, under a group of exceptional judges, the bird launcher was very close to the beginning of the field, allowing the judges to see how the dog quartered AFTER being steady to wing and shot and retrieving the bird. 

We got our invite for Spokane, and I'd love to make it, but I don't think I'll be able to make the trip this year.  It should be a great time, and I'm sure you'll see some of my training partners.  I worked the 2008 RAW in Minnesota, so I know the atmosphere.  I saw the heartbreak of losing a dog on the last bird of the event, and I saw tears of joy from grown men - it's awesome.  Getting at least one RAW ribbon with each of my dogs is a definite goal of mine.