Have a friend that has a pest control business and trains detection dog for bed bugs,termites,carpenter ants etc....amazing what the dogs can do,and he uses mostly labs/rescue dogs... So scenting abilities!...any thoughts, wisdom,or stories? -------------------------------------------------- Thought of this "scenting ability topic" from a question to me about the pest detection dogs,they have to be able to pick-up the scent of live vs recently dead bugs,down to two live ones among five total,to be proofed,amazing. Also think this thread on another forum should be looked at by those that breed,those interested in this subject,and maybe especially those that think I'm a bit overboard about the high tail/high head thing.LOL... --- www.uplandjournal.com --- Topic-"body vs air scenting,in general"---- Some good stuff about the canine nose!

I absolutely agree that a dog can tell the difference between pen raised and wild birds but most of the problems associated with style and scenting on pen raised is the trainers fault do to the pressure that may have been used with these birds and poor planting techniques or poor flying birds which may result caught birds and freaked out trainers. Once the dog realizes that the the birds that smell this way are not as fun as birds that smell that way some issues could arise issues I think in some cases are preventable or  with some dogs a necessary evil.
I guess what I am saying its not the birds the are the problem but the humans who use them.
Who trains to just hunt pen raised birds anyway....

Posted By tigerliberty on 24 Jan 2010 03:02 PM 

Who trains to just hunt pen raised birds anyway....

You might be suprised....

A friend through another organization bragged that he hadhunted the crap out of and shot 150 birds over his young dog this hunting season.   I asked where the heck he found that many birds,  "at a game farm"  


When ever our club does the "game farm thing" I see it as good training, and a chance to get the dogs out, but to call it hunting is a bit of a stretch to me.    Though that might be what we are left with in Iowa before too long.

Im snowed in (again). I will add my two cents.

I think a dog can tell the difference in the scenarios or set up of 'hunting' of wild vs pen raised birds, but I do not think that a pen raised bird thats been released and been out for a certain period of time smells different than a 'regular' wild bird. If they could after a certain time frame, why would they care or act diff?

I am sure there is some difference in scent, but I really dont think it makes any difference to the dog. Has anyone ever been pheasant hunting and the dog kicks up a grouse? A bird is a bird in his mind, the dogs that smell live bugs or dead bodies are trained with that exact smell. In WI the area to hunt and the population of birds is terrible. The DNR releases alot of "chickens" and they are fun, but most of our hunting today is down to that and the game farm. Not everyone can afford the trip to pheasant heaven to run nothing but wild birds. None of my labs have ever been less birdy on a DNR chicken than they were on a wild bird. If it makes a difference on the point or style there of, I have no idea.

Sorry I even mentioned the part you all are picking up on,but I guess,have at it if so inclined. It was just what triggered some pondering about scenting ability in dogs,and the visit to a friends new training site for detection dogs. The discussion on the upland journal forum is a great thread.................... ,more about the scenting ability in upland dogs,discerning gamebirds from sparrows for example.High ended scenting from great distances and zeroing in on the bird,then locking up when located etc.. The fact that dogs hunting can pick up scent even when exhaling,,,,air scent-ground scent etc...
Here is an example of something that wows me about a gundogs scenting ability.Today I did a little trailing training,on all three dogs.It's fun stuff,and the youngsters first time.I take him out for his turn and put him on the start of the drag,he had no problem with a couple hundred yard tracking job thru the woods and over some hills,in deep old snow,in the rain.No real training really,just bringing out what they have in them,good sniffers to be sure.

Frank, when they get good at it, try laying more than one track. Try a drag with a live pigeon and a live pheasant for instance. Whatever - different, but similar critters to start. Lay the tracks so one crosses the other. Play games with it. See what happens when the dog follows one track across another fresher track - tell us what happens.

Another interesting experiment: Some olks think the breath of a bird contains most of the scent. I remember one trainer in VT doing a quick test of this. he took a hen pheasant and put her in a plastic bag with the head onle exposed - planted her for his best pointer to find.... Do you think the dog found the bird?

Jere

I would suggest that while a "bird is a bird" to dogs they do figure out which ones you are hunting.....

Most dogs will chase rabbits to start with but they learn that is not what we are after and ignore the scent.... The same with meadow larks, sparrows etc.

When I was a youngster we had a dog that had never seen anything but wild pheasents and quail. So he had never had a hen pheasent shot over him, in his prime and his later years my dad and I truly believed that he knew the difference between hens and Roosters. Acted a different kind of birdy, pointed the hens with much less intensity, just different. Got reliable enough that we would not even walk over to him when he was "hen pointing". Looking back that seems hard to believe.....


To answer Jere's question it would not suprise me if the dog had trouble, they likely smelled "something" but did not ID it right away because the "whole" package of scent was not there, may not of recognized it as bird because the BO was not present as well. Dead birds without blood are much harder for a dog to find then one with even a drop of blood, come to a NAHRA event and watch handlers pucker if the judge uses a dry dead bird for the trail vs. a wet bird. To see handlers smile get a judge to put a few drops of blood in the water and soak a live duck..... the scents all area different and hold up MUCH differeently....

Animals learn what something smells like and when it is not exact they may not recognize it. CASE IN POINT

I heard/read a story (perhaps here come to think of it) of a deer hunting party that for 2-3 days watched a big buck come down the fence line towards tehm, only to take the "wrong" fork in the trail to come to their blind. Figureing they could not move the blind with out sticking out on such short notice, the last night of the trip they started drinking and started collecting urine. the next morning before going to their blind they dumped their urine all over the ground on the "wrong" fork in the trail assuming that the deer would smell the human scent and be herded up to them. The deer came up the trail just as he had the 2-3 days previous, got to where the urine was poured, peed over top of the urine and proceeded up the "wrong" fork of the trail to safety.....

The pee, with out all of the other scent that goes along with human scent did not spook them, in fact they had seen it as an unwelcome intruder to his territory. I think as humans with less then superiour noses ourselves we will never truly understand what goes on in the olfactory cells of a good bird dog, deer, or what ever. May "know" scientifically how it works but may not understand it like we would like to.....

IMO, dogs can easily tell pen raised from wild. (unless the pen raised birds have been out a couple weeks or more).



.

I just find it fascinating the amount of info a dogs nose gathers in.I don't think for a minute that a bird is a bird to them.
.... Jere,yes I think the bird was found,but I also have been keeping up on the thread mentioned,so I kinda cheated...LOL.also on that little trailing exercise the pup was third to run,and all three trails were started at the same place,so he whooped his dad on that one.
I could tell some stories about the trailing of crippled ducks in the river,with current and going on for great distances,have seen quite a few amazing demonstrations ,as I think most hunters with dogs have,,,like Fritz story,,,good stuff.
The detection trainer told me a story of a guy coming in to get his dog certified,after doing all the training required.He was nervous and sweating and the dog did not do well.My friend took the dog and put him through the test for proofing and the dog nailed it....He had the owner relax a bit and do the cert test again,the dog struggled but passed........Think the dog picked up on the sweat not being from his master being too warm,but the type of sweat from stress?....So take that to what a dogs nose is telling him about the birds he's hunting...????

Posted By Paco on 02 Feb 2010 10:22 AM
I just find it fascinating the amount of info a dogs nose gathers in.I don't think for a minute that a bird is a bird to them.
....

1) Jere,yes I think the bird was found,but I also have been keeping up on the thread mentioned,so I kinda cheated...LOL....

2)  detection trainer told me a story of a guy coming in to get his dog certified,after doing all the training required.He was nervous and sweating and the dog did not do well.My friend took the dog and put him through the test for proofing and the dog nailed it....He had the owner relax a bit and do the cert test again,the dog struggled but passed........Think the dog picked up on the sweat not being from his master being too warm,but the type of sweat from stress?....So take that to what a dogs nose is telling him about the birds he's hunting...????

1)  Here are the trainer's comments leading up to the "test" and reporting on it:
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Now this has me thinking that I'm going to put a pen raised hen pheasant in a big ziplock bag [except for its head] and see if the dogs point it and /or do so with the same intensity as normal.

I'm sure there would be some degree of body scent with the head exposed but only a tiny part of what would be normal.

I'll report back with those results pro breath scent or con.
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Don't expect a double blind study with 100 dogs over a 5 year period....

I'm going to run one of my pointers [4 yo out of Guard Rail bitch] and see what she does. Lord knows I've seen he point enough to know what she's thinking. Heck, she may blow right by it but I will put out a "control" bird farther along in the same type of cover/wind/etc. conditions.
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OK.......The Readers Digest version is that she didn't point it.

I had a hen in a bag only about 100 yards from the house and she knew something was up. Going as fast as she could go, I saw her wind it but not stop/point or check up. I hacked her around it a few time and every time she passed it down wind [about 15'] I could tell she smelled something.

Finally, from the up wind side she ran right into the bird/bag. The bird was unharmed and is looking forward to more strange testing.

From my highly scientific test results I'd say she could smell something but it wasn't enough to get her to point. Yes, the tiny head could have been what she smelled.

More science to follow......

I'm going to run her again but get her just a wee bit more settled down and in the hunt [not run] mode. In addition to the live bird I'm going to put out a dead one with just its head exposed as my 'control' in case she points the live one.
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He never said anything more.
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2) I had a friend who had something like forty years working with versatile dogs in and out of NAVHDA until he died late last winter.
He frequently commented on similar observations. Though he didn't discount scent as a contributing factor he tended to emphasize handler body language as primarily responsible for the dog's failures.
Jere